Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Simple crw with sabre 2

 


Sabrekakkonen

Dec 12, 2017, 9:41 AM
Post #1 of 20 (8611 views)
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Simple crw with sabre 2 Can't Post

Hi, i am interested in doing some crw, but i really dont have money to buy another parachute(crw).
I am planning:
-sitting on canopy nose
-standing on canopy top skin
-hit firiends endcell with my body side
If flying carefully, is it safe enough?

My canopy is microlined sabre2 150 loaded 1.2
At least i should wear thick pants to ensure lines are not injuring me.


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Dec 12, 2017, 10:39 AM
Post #2 of 20 (8540 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not a CRW guy, but I suspect the answer is no. But the reason I'm posting is similar to yours. At my home DZ we have people doing microline CRW. I also did some Stiletto CRW 20 years ago, but stopped when I cut my hand on someone's lines. My wife has decided to try some CRW, so I relined an RW Triathlon with Dacron for her. In the past some of my friends have docked on her Pilot with Sabre type canopies. She did not know better. I told my friend that we were going to be going out back for a "discussion" with fists if he ever did that again. I just keep thinking about the feeling of that microline cutting into my skin. That was enough to convince me.

But I really want to hear what people who really know think.


texascrw  (D 18006)

Dec 12, 2017, 2:06 PM
Post #3 of 20 (8486 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Do yourself a favor and look around for an old Triathlon with ragged out lines. They can be had for just a few hundred dollars, which is a whole lot cheaper than the ER bill when your arm or leg gets sliced to the bone in a wrap with microline. Aerodyne will either reline it with a Hybrid Dacron line set or sell you the line set for your rigger to do it. If it is a standard Triathlon, and not a Hybrid, you can get a 5 foot bridle, put a number 8 grommet in your d-bag to act as a kill cone for your pilot chute and you are good to go for doing casual type CRW. However, unless the people you are jumping with also have Dacron lines, you are still chancing it. After all, it will probably be their lines that are wrapped around you, not yours. Hopefully you have one person in the group that knows what they are doing, but I'm guessing not, or they would have told you the same thing about using microlined canopies for CRW.

Get some appropriate canopies and have fun. CRW is great! Also look at attending one of the Raw Dogs CRW camps.


johnmatrix  (E 9999)

Dec 12, 2017, 11:38 PM
Post #4 of 20 (8411 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

CRW is totally awesome, but I think if you want to do it you should get the appropriate gear (and more importantly - training).


sammielu  (D 33923)

Dec 13, 2017, 12:30 AM
Post #5 of 20 (8402 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Microline will slice you to the bone like cutting through cheese with a wire.

Trailing pilot chutes are a major entanglement hazard that can kill.

Wraps and entanglements are a big fucking deal if you're not trained and haven't had your equipment (rig, clothing choices, etc) reviewed by someone who understands few.

The cool thing about CRW is you can't do it alone... So come make friends, get some coaching, and likely borrow gear for a while. It's pretty normal for CRW dawg to loan out canopies, rigs, etc, to enable others to jump.

Look up the RawDawgs and come play!


sedwick  (D 34850)

Dec 13, 2017, 7:31 AM
Post #6 of 20 (8323 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Where are you located? The CRW community is great about educating newbies and even loaning gear.

Depending on where you live, you might not be far from people who can train you in proper techniques and safety.

Not everyone's listed but here's a good place to look for people who are willing to teach.

https://www.rawdogscrw.com/find-a-coach-


topdocker  (D 12018)

Dec 13, 2017, 9:18 AM
Post #7 of 20 (8287 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I'm thinking you can still learn a lot using your Sabre deuce without suffering all the problems of the microline and trailing pilot chute.

Do tons of proxy flying! Learn to turn and get near another canopy without hitting it or being a mile away. Adjust the rate of your turn and altitude so that you end up next to and on the same level without having to sashay a thousand times or sit in rear risers for an hour.

Learn what affects front risers, rear risers, toggles, combinations of the front ant toggles have, feel the body burble, feel the canopy burble, and how changing your body position affects your canopy. Having another canopy next to you gives you real feedback as to what is happening.

You don't need to dock to learn how to fly well, in fact it is harder to proxy fly than dock. CF is not about slamming docks together but flying in very close proximity so that a line can be kicked into with as minimal affect on the formation and the docker as possible.

Yeah, you and your friend can pick up a triathlon or similar canopy super cheap (although the cost of new risers, toggles, maybe a deployment bag and new pilot chute has to be factored in) and have some fun. But in the meantime you can be laying the base of skills you will need to me a good canopy flyer with the equipment you have.

Save the microline CF for crazy experts, while you are learning you should stick to Dacron and good socks.

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Bob_Church  (D 8195)
Fatalities Manager
Dec 13, 2017, 9:51 AM
Post #8 of 20 (8268 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Sabrekakkonen wrote:
Hi, i am interested in doing some crw, but i really dont have money to buy another parachute(crw).
I am planning:
-sitting on canopy nose
-standing on canopy top skin
-hit firiends endcell with my body side
If flying carefully, is it safe enough?

My canopy is microlined sabre2 150 loaded 1.2
At least i should wear thick pants to ensure lines are not injuring me.

It sounds as though this is a new canopy. Along with the danger of microcline, CReW can be hard on a canopy. Getting a used canopy for CReW might actually save you money.


Bob_Church  (D 8195)
Fatalities Manager
Dec 13, 2017, 10:02 AM
Post #9 of 20 (8257 views)
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Re: [johnmatrix] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

johnmatrix wrote:
CRW is totally awesome, but I think if you want to do it you should get the appropriate gear (and more importantly - training).

I get goose bumps just thinking about that noise a canopy makes as it zips up the lines behind you. Nothing, for me at least, ever compared with CReW for great skydiving.


countzero  (D 32712)

Dec 14, 2017, 7:13 AM
Post #10 of 20 (8123 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

What canopy does your buddy have? And does he have any CRW experience? Do either of you have CRW emergency procedure training?

"sitting on canopy nose and hit friends end cell with my body side"- has you on top as the pilot. In other words- you are the one getting docked on.

This is a bad idea for two reasons-

1- if your buddy has no CRW experience he does not know how to line up to dock properly or safely abort and try again from a bad approach.

2- if you don't have any CRW piloting experience you don't know what a good approach looks like and how to dodge when your buddy comes screaming in at you from a bad angle.

Add micro lines to the mix and it goes from bad to worse when you wrap, even if you're wearing thick pants.

As for "standing on canopy top skin"- you are in a good position to get "center punched". Wrapped because the guy below can't see you, hits brakes or rears and rises up into you.

I highly suggest finding a coach or CRW camp and getting proper instruction. It's the best and safest way to try CRW. If you get hooked you can worry about a CRW canopy later.

If you choose to ignore this and rely on "flying carefully and safe enough" please don't post the carnage video and give CRW a bad name.


skytribe  (D 9403)

Dec 14, 2017, 8:15 AM
Post #11 of 20 (8108 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Sabrekakkonen wrote:
Hi, i am interested in doing some crw, but i really dont have money to buy another parachute(crw).
I am planning:
-sitting on canopy nose
-standing on canopy top skin
-hit firiends endcell with my body side
If flying carefully, is it safe enough?

My canopy is microlined sabre2 150 loaded 1.2
At least i should wear thick pants to ensure lines are not injuring me.

Microline slices through most material very quickly. As a seasoned CRW dog I did a dive with other experienced dogs with a canopy lined with microline. No wraps or anything just zipped up the line when some tension on the formation. Microline ripped through 2 pairs of socks and ended up with deep cuts on both ankles. Never ever again.....

Sabre 2 is also not an ideal canopy for flying with more traditional CRW canopies. CRW is hard on canopies - you will see that CRW canopies have a reinforced nose and retracting pilot chute to avoid entanglements.

The fact you are asking this questions is good but CRW is not something to just randomly try with friends. Go to a CRW camp or find an experienced CRW dog to get some coaching. If the coach says yeah - lets do it on the Sabre 2 - find another coach.

The Rawdogs have a list of CRW coaches around the country which can help in finding someone to teach you. Often they have spare canopies or can locate the correct equipment to use.

Ensure you have decent knives and a thorough safety brief before going up and trying dives. Every wrap/entranglement are different but having
the knowledge beforehand about what to do if something happens is essential.


johnmatrix  (E 9999)

Dec 19, 2017, 12:29 PM
Post #12 of 20 (7686 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Another alternative for you is to do outside camera of CRW jumps with your Sabre 2. I have done that with my Sabre 2 and while it's easier to use a CRW canopy to do it with - you can still have fun and learn.


tikl68  (C 35249)

Jan 8, 2018, 10:42 PM
Post #13 of 20 (6335 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

My CRW dawgs (too wrapped up) out of Elsinore always have canopies and other equipment needed to outfit a pup to get them in the air. Like most people have said get some info from a CRW dawg and specialized/proper equipment, and definitely a proper hook knife.Believe it or not there are specific ways to deal with CRW EP's that are different than than free fall EP's and it is important to have that knowledge.


FlyLikeARaven  (D 36650)

Jan 18, 2018, 10:32 AM
Post #14 of 20 (5445 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Please train with an actual CRW dog before trying any of this stuff. I started CRW last year and won't get near anyone on a sport canopy, even more so after doing actual CRW. I've had people try to chase me on sport canopies after agreeing to proxy fly, trying to get on my topskin (they get a talking to on the ground). I've had people asking me to CRW with them on my Safire, and don't understand why I refuse until after they take a look at my Lightning setup.

There are a couple of arrogant swoopers at my DZ who, because of my low jump numbers, refuse to listen to reason about doing CRW on their swoop canopies. They seem to think the risk is eliminated with an RDS. They used to be two of the handful of people I'd proxy fly with on sport canopies, but I won't anymore after seeing this attitude.

Proxy flight and end cell bumps can be fun and safe, but you need a mentor with experience, a calm demeanor, and a commitment to a planned break-off. Real CRW is best taught by real CRW dogs. There are lots of them and they are super friendly and welcoming. Elsinore is a great resource on the west coast, and the Raw Dogs can help you out in the midwest, I think. It's worth the bit of travel to learn from real Dogs. They often have gear to lend and are very generous about it. I borrowed gear (and had to force them to accept some cash for the favor) for about 20 jumps before my own Lightning was built.

CRW is a great discipline, and safe proxy flight is a great way to start. Be humble and listen to mentors you can trust.


IJskonijn  (B License)

Jan 19, 2018, 2:07 AM
Post #15 of 20 (5355 views)
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Re: [FlyLikeARaven] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

FlyLikeARaven wrote:
They seem to think the risk is eliminated with an RDS.
Ouch, that's like saying you don't need a parachute to jump because you've got a perfectly good helmet. Crazy

The only excuse for flying CRW with such canopies is if both of them are already rock-solid CRWdogs with a proven history of flying millimeter-perfect next to eachother. But in that case they should know better than to think a trailing pilot chute is the only risk.


FlyLikeARaven  (D 36650)

Jan 19, 2018, 10:53 AM
Post #16 of 20 (5297 views)
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Re: [IJskonijn] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

IJskonijn wrote:
FlyLikeARaven wrote:
They seem to think the risk is eliminated with an RDS.
Ouch, that's like saying you don't need a parachute to jump because you've got a perfectly good helmet. Crazy

The only excuse for flying CRW with such canopies is if both of them are already rock-solid CRWdogs with a proven history of flying millimeter-perfect next to eachother. But in that case they should know better than to think a trailing pilot chute is the only risk.

They are very good swoopers, and very good canopy pilots in general. They are not CRW dogs nor very smart people in general--that's my takeaway after this whole scenario. I have let both of them know that I wash my hands of any guilt if they choose to continue to try to stack their Leias.


IJskonijn  (B License)

Jan 21, 2018, 12:20 AM
Post #17 of 20 (5168 views)
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Re: [FlyLikeARaven] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Obligatory Friday Freakout

CRW is a bit strange in that respect. It is prime Friday Freakout-territory (been there, done that, even with other experienced CRW-dogs), but when done right, the result is absolutely fantastic!


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jan 22, 2018, 10:10 AM
Post #18 of 20 (4947 views)
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Re: [IJskonijn] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

IJskonijn wrote:
Obligatory Friday Freakout

CRW is a bit strange in that respect. It is prime Friday Freakout-territory (been there, done that, even with other experienced CRW-dogs), but when done right, the result is absolutely fantastic!

Don't just show big ways! The smaller ways are way fun too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSLQ4aVszo

top


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Feb 23, 2018, 4:31 PM
Post #19 of 20 (2998 views)
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Re: [Sabrekakkonen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

This RW-suit was damaged in a collision between two microlined freefall canopies. It clearly shows why CReW and microline don't mix. The canopies hit each other and then slid off each other in less than five seconds. I am not entirely sure of the models and sizes of the canopies, but I believe one of them was a Pulse 150 and the other a Pilot.

Many thanks to the jumper who agreed to let me use this picture and more like it for instructional purposes.
Attachments: DSC_0027small.jpg (481 KB)


johnmatrix  (E 9999)

Apr 14, 2018, 9:14 PM
Post #20 of 20 (1817 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Simple crw with sabre 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Shocked



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