Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one

 

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tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 4, 2017, 2:28 AM
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Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one Can't Post

http://www.fox13news.com/...olleyball-tournament


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 4, 2017, 7:04 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

 That turkey has no business being anywhere near a demo. What.a.dick.


craddock  (D 22750)

Dec 4, 2017, 7:31 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a very simple demo to have messed up. Just can't go long. Probably started with poor vertical separation with larger canopy below him while he wanted to swoop in. Fighting for airspace on a demo is not good. plenty of outs


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 4, 2017, 7:44 AM
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Re: [craddock] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

craddock wrote:
This is a very simple demo to have messed up. Just can't go long. Probably started with poor vertical separation with larger canopy below him while he wanted to swoop in. Fighting for airspace on a demo is not good. plenty of outs


Simple demo? Should have been. This guy proved otherwise, in over his head.

Wrong choice of canopy, wrong choice of jumper, poor planning, crap execution. Whoever organised that jump needs a swift kick in the arse.

When you are performing in public, it is imperative to get everything right, so no demo should be approached with a "its simple" mind set. Canopy selection is really important.

And that means, if only one jumper is qualified to do the jump, you don't fill the load with turkeys who want to show off to the crowd, just to fill the plane.

Watching the video, that guy was completely out of control. Hence my earlier comment about him. What was his experience level, I wonder?

Big fail.


raff

Dec 5, 2017, 5:49 PM
Post #5 of 26 (5823 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Could anyone possibly have put a worse face on the institution of skydiving! What a jerk! A significant segment of society now knows all they need to know about skydiving.


shorehambeach  (C License)

Dec 6, 2017, 3:34 PM
Post #6 of 26 (4969 views)
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Re: [raff] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Another angle

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8b7_1512524945


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 6, 2017, 3:55 PM
Post #7 of 26 (4933 views)
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Re: [shorehambeach] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe a better quality of that angle Santa tries to swoop
Poor innocent bystander tree.


rjklein4470

Dec 6, 2017, 4:36 PM
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Re: [normiss] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

that sound, ouch


lienbacher  (D License)

Dec 7, 2017, 4:53 AM
Post #9 of 26 (4403 views)
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Re: [craddock] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

craddock wrote:
This is a very simple demo to have messed up.

there is no such thing as a simple demo. treating a demo as simple is the first mistake you can make on the road to something like this. It usually takes more mistakes for this result, but why not rule out mistake no. 1 to not get the road started in the first place?
Demos are never "your average skydive", they are always special, always different and always need double extra caution to be performed safely.


On the other angle that was published on liveleak it seems like he felt proficient on 90 degree turns to final but failed to do the turn the way he pictured it and ran out of options to the point where you can see his body relax, go to toggles and try to move the canopy away from the obstacle, which worked, but his body hit anyway ...


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 7, 2017, 5:29 AM
Post #10 of 26 (4342 views)
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Re: [lienbacher] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

lienbacher wrote:
craddock wrote:
This is a very simple demo to have messed up.

there is no such thing as a simple demo. treating a demo as simple is the first mistake you can make on the road to something like this. It usually takes more mistakes for this result, but why not rule out mistake no. 1 to not get the road started in the first place?
Demos are never "your average skydive", they are always special, always different and always need double extra caution to be performed safely.


On the other angle that was published on liveleak it seems like he felt proficient on 90 degree turns to final but failed to do the turn the way he pictured it and ran out of options to the point where you can see his body relax, go to toggles and try to move the canopy away from the obstacle, which worked, but his body hit anyway ...

He was in full on panic mode at that point! If he hadn't hit the tree he would have hooked himself in hard. The tree prolly saved him worse damage than he got.

Light years from "relaxed".


fcajump  (D 15598)

Dec 7, 2017, 5:58 AM
Post #11 of 26 (4295 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone is familiar with exactly where this is, please post the google location...

Edited:
Think I found my own answer...
https://www.google.com/...A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
/Edit

I am having trouble from the videos in figuring out where he was initially trying to setup... Looked like a deliberate direction until the last stabbed turn, but nothing in that direction (within frame) looks remotely usable.

That he made a panic turn away is evident, but prior to realizing he needed/wanted the turn, where was he fixated on for landing??

Heal fast. Learn the lessons. There will be another test... (starting, as someone else mentioned, with Demo item #1)

JW


(This post was edited by fcajump on Dec 7, 2017, 6:14 AM)


johnhking1  (D 5567)

Dec 7, 2017, 6:39 AM
Post #12 of 26 (4227 views)
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Re: [shorehambeach] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Watch the video very closely when he hits the tree, you can see the right hand spot light on the light pole vibrate. It looks like his lines hit the light. Can't tell what the light pole is made of but it probably is more solid than the tree branch. Imagine if he hit the pole, maybe his last minute turn was to miss it.


Cloggy  (D License)

Dec 7, 2017, 6:51 AM
Post #13 of 26 (4201 views)
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Re: [johnhking1] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

He's very lucky to avoid that lamppost.
I guess the landing zone was alongside that building, looks like it is about 160x50ft.


(This post was edited by Cloggy on Dec 7, 2017, 6:52 AM)


grimmie  (D 18890)

Dec 7, 2017, 10:15 AM
Post #14 of 26 (3916 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Bullshit like this is why demo insurance costs so much.

It is why people at high schools or city venues do not want demos performed.

If they do allow it, this is why they want $5 million in coverage.

This is why demos get cancelled.

If you want to do a demo, take a demo course, use the right equipment for the job and if you don't have the skill set, let someone that does perform it.

Too many jumpers today think that a demo is just another skydive.

You're killing the truly professional teams.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Dec 7, 2017, 10:54 AM
Post #15 of 26 (3853 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

grimmie wrote:
Bullshit like this is why demo insurance costs so much.

yep.

Found this online:
Quote:
Jennifer Handville
You were asking about the plan. I知 a member of this volleyball group. They posted this the day before the volleyball tournament. (see attachment)

JW
Attachments: 24852265_10159657323340164_121913182189562523_n.jpg (66.1 KB)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 7, 2017, 1:25 PM
Post #16 of 26 (3604 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

 Brilliant plan. "Lets fly a HP canopy into a blind alley".

What could possibly go wrong?

Did they even do a recce of the DZ first? Somehow I think not.


rifleman  (Student)

Dec 8, 2017, 6:40 AM
Post #17 of 26 (2960 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

fcajump wrote:
grimmie wrote:
Bullshit like this is why demo insurance costs so much.

yep.

Found this online:
Quote:
Jennifer Handville
You were asking about the plan. I知 a member of this volleyball group. They posted this the day before the volleyball tournament. (see attachment)

JW

From the google earth pictures there looks to be an outfall pipe at the western end of the beach between the recreation centre and the beach proper. Surely, and I ask as a complete novice it would have been better to fly from the hold towards the out fall and then committed to final along the length of the beach (possibly having another Santa hidden close to the landing area in case of a f*ck up like this).


DanG  (D 22351)

Dec 8, 2017, 6:54 AM
Post #18 of 26 (2913 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Brilliant plan. "Lets fly a HP canopy into a blind alley".

At least they were landing uphill. Crazy


fcajump  (D 15598)

Dec 8, 2017, 7:43 AM
Post #19 of 26 (2854 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

rifleman wrote:
From the google earth pictures there looks to be an outfall pipe at the western end of the beach between the recreation centre and the beach proper. Surely, and I ask as a complete novice it would have been better to fly from the hold towards the out fall and then committed to final along the length of the beach (possibly having another Santa hidden close to the landing area in case of a f*ck up like this).

Not 100% sure I'm following you, but... I think you're asking "wouldn't it be better to have the long beach front upon which to land vs a blind alley"?

If that is your point... well, yes... all other things being equal that would allow for a larger landing area... therefore "better"

However other considerations:
- wind direction (though I doubt it should be a leading factor here)
- sponsor's request/requirement
- cool factor (obviously blown if you eat it)
- land owner's permission (maybe a non-factor, maybe a major factor depending on ownership/management of different properties and the resultant liability insurance requirements.) Looks like the volleyball area might be owned/managed by a different group... or not.
- ability to close said area to non-crew during the jump.

Another aspect of this that arises on that last point. Your allowed drift-over altitude and audience set-back (vertical and horizontal clearances) directly play into how big this landing area is whether or not you are required to have a PRO rating or equivalent approval. (all assuming you acknowledge that this IS a demo/exhibition jump... as advertised... and that you file for the necessary FAA Certificate of Authorization.)

As to Demo Insurance... well... if you don't have the CoA, you aren't likely to have insurance. If you don't qualify for the conditions of the CoA, your insurance may not be worth anything. If you told the FAA one thing on your CoA application, but advertised a different landing area... you may have other issues arise.

All of the processes (CoA and it's stipulations / PRO rating / Insurance requirements) are intended to keep this from happening. Doesn't mean it won't happen on occasion, even the GK have less than stellar shows once in a while... but I'd be curious as to more of the back story on this one.

Things I am grateful for on this:
- He could have been injured worse/killed with that last turn/tree/landing.
- It doesn't appear that anyone else was hit.
- He wasn't carrying a drop-flag with weight to be swung around at the time (not against them, just they have their own added issues)

Things I am still waiting to hear... (not holding my breath)
- Qualifications / experience level?
- Planning/prep?
- gear used?
- costume issues? (last minute beard/vision problems?)
- Mitigating situations/conditions?*

*I recall a demo-gone-bad that looked on video like incompetence on the part of a flag carrier... hooked it low and snagged the drop-weight... paid for it hard in the landing/crash... turned out to be that a young kid (3y.o.?) got by the crowd line/ground-crew and was in danger of being hit by the drop-weight. Jumper took evasive action to ensure he kept the kid safe. I don't see that in the video's here, but the videos aren't the greatest for seeing what the jumper saw.


JW


(This post was edited by fcajump on Dec 8, 2017, 7:46 AM)


Bob_Church  (D 8195)

Dec 8, 2017, 10:10 AM
Post #20 of 26 (2651 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

I do a Santa jump at least once a year but it's into our very large and of course familiar area. Everything past the fence is for jumping and it's huge.
But here's my big worry. I haven't done it yet and I'm seriously careful about it. I've just jumped, the adrenaline is flowing, my mouth is dry but I have to speak to the kids. Only for a few minutes, what I do it basically introduce the candy drop, oops, Santa left the candy on the plane, if you all yell loud enough maybe he'll fly low over the taxiway and dump it. And all is well and the kids have a great time. But some of these kids actually believe that I AM Santa and even with the other their parents are there and would not like to hear the kid saying bad words then get the excuse "well, Santa said it." I don't even let the other guys do their Bad Santa routines before the jump. This is serious business.
On a lighter note, this is in a very small town and they drive to a larger one nearby that has a walmart. I wonder if the poor bastard that plays Santa for that walmart has ever figured out these really really weird questions from some of the kids?


jclalor  (B 33202)

Dec 8, 2017, 3:41 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2304 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems he is parralel with his canopy at about 15 ft. Perhaps the tree saved his life.


Phil1111  (D 315)

Dec 9, 2017, 10:11 AM
Post #22 of 26 (1805 views)
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Re: [jclalor] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

No, the sand saved him from more serious injury. Not as good as pea gravel, but still pretty forgiving.


CTSkydiver  (D 18461)

Dec 10, 2017, 3:13 AM
Post #23 of 26 (1381 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Google has a neat 3D view ... but it's not perfect 葉he light pole's existence can only be inferred by its shadow. Sneaky pole.
Attachments: Demo Site in 3D.jpg (532 KB)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Dec 11, 2017, 6:39 AM
Post #24 of 26 (788 views)
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Re: [CTSkydiver] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

CTSkydiver wrote:
Google has a neat 3D view ... but it's not perfect 葉he light pole's existence can only be inferred by its shadow. Sneaky pole.

True its there, and I wondered about that, but in looking at NBC's posted video, it doesn't look like he caught it.

(Though I can't say seeing it didn't influence his actions/reactions)

JW


topdocker  (D 12018)

Dec 11, 2017, 9:07 AM
Post #25 of 26 (629 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Santa Claus Demo oops... yet another one [In reply to] Can't Post

fcajump wrote:
CTSkydiver wrote:
Google has a neat 3D view ... but it's not perfect 葉he light pole's existence can only be inferred by its shadow. Sneaky pole.

True its there, and I wondered about that, but in looking at NBC's posted video, it doesn't look like he caught it.

(Though I can't say seeing it didn't influence his actions/reactions)

JW

Oh no, that pole is obvious as any other obstacle and a simple walk through of the landing area would have revealed this hazard. The problem is not the tree or the light pole or anything on the ground, but the aggressive landing technique used for an unfamiliar landing area. (full brakes to double fronts to riser turn)

Often repeated here, but a demo is not just another jump. Real planning and leg work has to go in beforehand or this is the type of result you can get.

These mistakes have real-world consequences beyond the injury to this jumper. This venue probably will not want another demo, those that have seen this on TV probably will not either. Years of PR have evaporated because one person just could not be bothered to cool his jets and just focus on landing in, on, and up. (In the landing area, on time, and standing up)

Hope he heals well and learns from this.

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