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Cilliers Trial UK.

 

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obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 8, 2017, 7:08 AM
Post #51 of 75 (3110 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

 BBC website. They are following the trial and usually post an update every day...


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Nov 8, 2017, 4:11 PM
Post #52 of 75 (2987 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

MikeJD wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Cilliers today on the stand.

Claiming that it is possible somebody else sabotaged the gear. Somehow, I don't think that one will fly with the jury.

Prosecution basically laughed in his face.....

...

Where are you getting that info?


Maybe here:

http://www.bbc.com/...d-wiltshire-41886573


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Nov 9, 2017, 12:51 AM
Post #53 of 75 (2924 views)
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Re: [skydog] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

skydog wrote:
Actually not far from the truth. It wasn't me but my colleague who took her...... can't make this shit up!!! Haha

Your non-BPA rated colleagues? Tongue


shorehambeach  (C License)

Nov 10, 2017, 7:00 AM
Post #54 of 75 (2690 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Parachute trial: Emile Cilliers 'lust-driven pantomime villain'

Emile Cilliers denies attempting to murder Victoria Cilliers on 5 April 2015
An Army sergeant accused of trying to murder his wife may be a "pantomime villain driven by lust" but he had no motive to kill, a jury has been told.

Former Army officer Victoria Cilliers suffered multiple injuries in 2015 when her parachute failed to open and she fell 4,000ft (1,200m).

Emile Cilliers is accused of tampering with the equipment to cause her death.

The court heard he was an "easy target" to the prosecution because he had been unfaithful to his wife.

In her closing statement at Winchester Crown Court, Mr Cilliers' defence barrister Elizabeth Marsh QC told the jury that the prosecution considered Cilliers a "vile human being" and treated him with "scorn, sarcasm and theatricality".
'No Prince Charming'
She asked jurors to remember he was "innocent until they were sure he was guilty".

Ms Marsh said: "Mr Cilliers is an easy target, no Prince Charming, if anything the pantomime villain, unfaithful, lying to each of the women in his life, as one assumes 'needs must' if you are conducting any sort of affair."
Emile Cilliers appearing in the defendants dock at Winchester Crown

Emile Cilliers is being represented by defence barrister Elizabeth Marsh QC
She added that his dishonesty during his affairs had been "driven by lust" but did not mean he was lying in his account of what happened to his wife.
"Do not characterise lies to fan the flames of lust as someway a motive for a murder," she said.
'Penniless scoundrel'

Ms Marsh also said that the suggested motive that he expected to receive his wife's estate if she died was "utterly rubbish".

She explained that the couple had a pre-nuptial agreement which excluded the "financially incontinent" and "penniless scoundrel" from inheriting from his wife.

Jurors were told Victoria Cilliers' survival was a "near miracle"

Ms Cilliers suffered multiple injuries when her hired parachute malfunctioned and the reserve failed as she plummeted 4,000ft to the ground at Netheravon Airfield, Wiltshire on 5 April 2015.
Jurors were told her survival was a "near miracle".

The defendant denies tampering with his wife's hire kit in a toilet cubicle at the Army Parachute Association.

The father-of-six also denies a second attempted murder charge relating to a gas leak at the family home in Amesbury, Wiltshire, and a third charge of damaging a gas valve, recklessly endangering life.

The trial continues.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 20, 2017, 4:09 AM
Post #55 of 75 (2294 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Jury retired on the 14th (last Tuesday) to consider their verdict, judge asked for a unanimous vote.

Since then, there has been nothing on the BBC website (maybe I've missed it) about a verdict, so assuming they are still out, they must be having difficulty deciding, so it appears it is not the open and shut case as everyone thought it would be.

Strange case......


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 20, 2017, 9:06 AM
Post #56 of 75 (2210 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Tim,

Quote:
judge asked for a unanimous vote

I do not know UK law. Is a unanimous vote req'd there?

Can a judge change the law ( the above quote ) if a unanimous vote is not req'd?

Jerry Baumchen


rifleman  (Student)

Nov 20, 2017, 9:30 AM
Post #57 of 75 (2196 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Generally, the jury will be asked for a unanimous verdict first but a majority verdict (11-1 or 10-2) will usually be accepted if no unanimous verdict can be reached.

In Scottish courts which operate under a different legal system to England and Wales there's also a third verdict available to the jury "Not Proven" which has been interpreted as "We the jury believe the accused to be guilty but the prosecution hasn't presented sufficient evidence for us to return a guilty verdict." The end result of the not proven verdict is still acquittal for the accused but it's not a not guilty verdict.


(This post was edited by rifleman on Nov 20, 2017, 9:38 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 20, 2017, 12:53 PM
Post #58 of 75 (2130 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The end result of the not proven verdict is still acquittal for the accused but it's not a not guilty verdict.

If the jury can't reach a verdict, would that leave the option of a retrial?


rifleman  (Student)

Nov 20, 2017, 1:07 PM
Post #59 of 75 (2121 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

While a "not proven" verdict is technically an acquittal it does not violate the double jeopardy rule. Should new evidence come to light the accused can be retried at a later date for the offence.

A hung jury (where the jury cannot agree a unanimous or majority verdict) will result in the jury being discharged and the trial concluded without a verdict. It will then fall to the CPS to decide whether to hold a retrial at a later date.


(This post was edited by rifleman on Nov 20, 2017, 1:36 PM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 20, 2017, 4:20 PM
Post #60 of 75 (2032 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Richard,

Quote:
the CPS

I believe that is the Crown Prosecutorial Service.

Yes/no?

Jerry Baumchen


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 20, 2017, 4:37 PM
Post #61 of 75 (2027 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

 So, if "not proven" is not an option in this case, it seems to me with the jury being out for 5 days already, that they are having trouble deciding he is guilty, and may end up letting him go.

I would have thought the verdict would have come quite quickly if they were going to find him guilty.

"Reasonable doubt" might be in play.


rifleman  (Student)

Nov 20, 2017, 4:44 PM
Post #62 of 75 (2023 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. The Crown Prosecution Service make all decisions about whether to pursue a court case. The police submit all their evidence to the CPS and the CPS decide whether to prosecute.


rifleman  (Student)

Nov 20, 2017, 4:51 PM
Post #63 of 75 (2017 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

The "not proven" verdict won't apply in this case as it's being tried in England but five days is not a long time for jury deliberations. The more complicated the case and the more complex the evidence, the longer it takes to reach a decision. The minimum time required before a judge will accept a majority verdict is 2hrs 10 mins but I've personally seen a case take 11 days before the jury returned a 10-2 majority guilty verdict.


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Nov 21, 2017, 6:35 AM
Post #64 of 75 (1870 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

rifleman wrote:
The more complicated the case and the more complex the evidence, the longer it takes to reach a decision.
Especially if the jurors are hoping not to have to go back to work before the Christmas break Wink.

Seriously, I'm glad they're taking their time, and 5 days doesn't seem excessive (in spite of some people in the community apparently having made up their minds after 5 minutes.) The jury will have a lot more evidence and testimony to consider than is available via the news sites.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 21, 2017, 6:50 AM
Post #65 of 75 (1862 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

MikeJD wrote:
rifleman wrote:
The more complicated the case and the more complex the evidence, the longer it takes to reach a decision.
Especially if the jurors are hoping not to have to go back to work before the Christmas break Wink.

Seriously, I'm glad they're taking their time, and 5 days doesn't seem excessive (in spite of some people in the community apparently having made up their minds after 5 minutes.) The jury will have a lot more evidence and testimony to consider than is available via the news sites.[/quote]

As is typical, the media were focussing on his "guilt" and it seemed the reporting was rather unbalanced. They didn't give much space to the defence case, so it was hard to know which way the case was going. They were going after the "villain" big time.

That is one reason I thought the prosecution reporting seemed to be over egging the pudding, with a lot of speculation and few real facts. I'd be interested to know a bit more about what the defence presented, but if he walks there will still be a lot of unanswered questions.


rifleman  (Student)

Nov 22, 2017, 9:47 AM
Post #66 of 75 (1597 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

The judge has given direction that he will accept a majority verdict but given that two jurors have been discharged due to ill health any majority verdict will have to be 9-1.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 23, 2017, 8:01 AM
Post #67 of 75 (1426 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Jury has failed to reach a verdict and has been discharged. It sounds like there were some shenanigans in the jury room.

Quote:
Emile Cilliers will face a retrial after the jury was dismissed on Thursday, a day after the judge warned its members against bullying between them.


This is all very strange, but obviously the prosecution didn't do enough to convince the jury of his guilt, certainly not enough to get a majority decision.


mik  (D 11111)

Nov 23, 2017, 10:13 AM
Post #68 of 75 (1380 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

It might not be so strange. From my reading of events, it seems as though there would only be 9 jurors left, meaning that a unanimous decision would be required, instead of a majority. Reconvening with a jury of 12 makes sense, albeit the Easter timing / delay making it a very stressful wait for those involved.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Nov 23, 2017, 2:16 PM
Post #69 of 75 (1316 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

rifleman wrote:
The judge has given direction that he will accept a majority verdict but given that two jurors have been discharged due to ill health any majority verdict will have to be 9-1.

Honest question:

In the US, they will appoint alternate jurors for major cases. If something happens, they can still have a full jury of 12 and not have to declare a mistrial, say if a juror gets sick. In the US, it takes a unanimous jury for a conviction or acquittal. Anything else is a hung jury and a mistrial.

Not done this way in the UK (I now know that unanimity is not automatically required)?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 23, 2017, 8:08 PM
Post #70 of 75 (1207 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Joe,

Quote:
In the US, it takes a unanimous jury for a conviction or acquittal.

Not always; it depends upon the laws of each particular state.

Jerry Baumchen


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Nov 24, 2017, 8:26 AM
Post #71 of 75 (1091 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

JerryBaumchen wrote:
Hi Joe,

Quote:
In the US, it takes a unanimous jury for a conviction or acquittal.

Not always; it depends upon the laws of each particular state.

Jerry Baumchen

True, but almost all states require unanimity for criminal cases. Federal law requires it. Louisiana and Oregon are the only two states that don't. There was a case that the SC declined a few years back about it in Louisiana.

Civil law is a whole different set of rules.


dgw  (C License)

Nov 24, 2017, 11:27 AM
Post #72 of 75 (1034 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

obelixtim wrote:
Jury has failed to reach a verdict and has been discharged. It sounds like there were some shenanigans in the jury room.

Quote:
Emile Cilliers will face a retrial after the jury was dismissed on Thursday, a day after the judge warned its members against bullying between them.


This is all very strange, but obviously the prosecution didn't do enough to convince the jury of his guilt, certainly not enough to get a majority decision.

Here's an article from The Times of 24 November. It sets it out reasonably clearly, in my opinion.
Attachments: image.jpeg (698 KB)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 25, 2017, 1:34 AM
Post #73 of 75 (908 views)
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Re: [dgw] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Sounds like the jury were split down the middle with some strong arguments for and against.

Does there have to be a retrial?

Surely the CPS would have to consider whether it is worth pursuing, and I would have thought the prosecution had a very good chance to present a strong case and failed to do so. They'll prolly have trouble coming up with anything new.

What happens if the next trial ends the same way?


neilmck

Nov 25, 2017, 2:29 AM
Post #74 of 75 (894 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

obelixtim wrote:
Does there have to be a retrial?

What happens if the next trial ends the same way?

A link with some answers about retrials in the UK: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/retrials/


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 25, 2017, 2:49 AM
Post #75 of 75 (881 views)
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Re: [neilmck] Cilliers Trial UK. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Thanks. It appears the CPS has to make a decision on that.


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