Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get

 


HammerinHank

Nov 8, 2017, 1:54 PM
Post #1 of 22 (2564 views)
Shortcut
need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get Can't Post

Just finished AFF two weeks ago. I知 now at 45 jumps. Started AFF at 237 lbs. Flying a 300. I知 now 221 lbs. Then a 280, 260 and flew a 240 twice. Didn稚 seem any different to me than the 260. I have a chance to buy a rig with a 240 nav. I know I値l eventually get to a 190 but don稚 wanna keep renting since I値l nothing to show for it in the end. What size should I be looking for ? Am i waisting my money on the 240 ? Should I go lower ? All opinions are appreciated than you.


timrf79

Nov 8, 2017, 2:24 PM
Post #2 of 22 (2537 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Downsizing is a very personal question.
Why would you want to downsize?

No one ever got hurt from having too much canopy.

Do you want to have less Nylon to wrangle?
Looking cool walking with a small rig?
Something easy to sell/ buy?
Do you want to go fast and swoop?

Those question will determine what canopy and size you fly.

The path to downsizing then will depend on your training (professional courses) and jump frequency, as well as location.

For me personally, I used to jump 10 times EVERY weekend.
Like going fast.
Have good health insurance and a desk job I can do with broken legs.

Therefore I was jumping a 190 at around jump 100 (same weight as you).

And I would start buying a rig for a 190 right now, because I would hit the 100 jump mark before the year is over.
A good rig with a 190 max for a big boy is not that fast to be found.


HammerinHank

Nov 9, 2017, 1:36 AM
Post #3 of 22 (2378 views)
Shortcut
Re: [timrf79] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Tim. Well. I definitely don稚 want to brake my legs. So right now my two options are get the used Rig with the 240 or get a wings container with a pulse 210 and can eventually go down to a 190. I知 already signed up to do two Canopy courses next month.


Hunterbeav  (D 16687)

Nov 9, 2017, 9:30 AM
Post #4 of 22 (2160 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Hank...I would not wing load much over 1.1 to begin with...but if you have both rigs available I would jump them both....and then decide...I would not get in a hurry to go small...take your time...my fist rig was a Pd 260...my exit weight was around 260lbs. I jumped that rig for about 50 jumps...then went to a Sabre 210...exit weight was about 250lbs....jumped that for 200 or so jumps then went to a sabre 190..my best advice would be take your time.


(This post was edited by Hunterbeav on Nov 9, 2017, 9:32 AM)


Maddingo

Nov 9, 2017, 9:31 AM
Post #5 of 22 (2160 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

You should also consider that student canopies are "buses" in the sky. The performance increases just by going from lets say a 240 Navigator to a 230 Sabre II, Pilot 250-230 etc. sports canopy

2nd One are numbers and scales and other are facts. Downsizing for a 6ft 2" 250lb man is a very different experience than a 5ft 8" jockey with 180lbs of weight. I read a lot of downsizing guides and approaches and noone even considered (except Brian Germain) the difference between a large vs small person. I would give more importance to how you feel in the air with different sizes of canopy and what do people on the ground think about your flying. The biggest difference I noticed when downsizing is the speed, which can be adjusted to pretty quickly if you are methodical and careful (to some extent afcourse), the other is the dive potential when u turn your canopy... that is the part you really got to be careful about. Noone also considers the DZ's. If you jump at a small DZ with max 5-6 people in the air you can probably get away with a smaller canopy, if the DZ is busy, not so much if it is beyond your skill level. Theese guides should not be taken literally from my perspective more like a very basic guideline.

3rd You can find a 240 that will feel like a 210 and vice versa. I'm talking from what I've demoed. At the same wingload I've encountered very different flight characteristcs and I've never went beyond square 1.1 wl canopies during this time. Some made the flight almost too exciting, others felt like slugs...


(This post was edited by Maddingo on Nov 9, 2017, 9:42 AM)


dthames  (D 34390)

Nov 9, 2017, 10:32 AM
Post #6 of 22 (2106 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

HammerinHank wrote:
Thank you Tim. Well. I definitely don稚 want to brake my legs. So right now my two options are get the used Rig with the 240 or get a wings container with a pulse 210 and can eventually go down to a 190. I知 already signed up to do two Canopy courses next month.

A good question to ask yourself is, "Will this choice increase my chances of walking off the field, so I can pack and jump again?"

I have heard some say that leg injuries are just part of the sport. I am an older jumper and listened to older jumpers in their views about downsizing. So far I have managed to walk off the field on every jump. Carefully consider what your primary goal is. Not just regarding downsizing but every jump....does this decision support my primary goal?


kat00  (B License)

Nov 9, 2017, 11:06 AM
Post #7 of 22 (2090 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't discredit renting as having nothing to show for it. You learn from doing and rentals help you to fill in that gap and figure out what is right. I know its a little costly but it lets you develop into the right size. It's also worth doing the B license canopy class then talking to the instructor where you are going to be in 50 more jumps.


mbohu  (A License)

Nov 9, 2017, 5:58 PM
Post #8 of 22 (1912 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

With my limited number of jumps, what I write should definitely not be taken as more than my personal experience...but I have similar weight to you and only a couple dozen jumps more so here it is:
I'm still renting and like it.
I went from Nav 300 to Nav 240, like you. The first size of rental canopies they have at my DZ which are not Navigators are 230s (Sabre2 and Spectres) I started using the Spectre 230 about 12 jumps ago and would say this:
Before you consider smaller sizes, consider different canopies than the Navigator. There is absolutely no comparison. I find the Navigator quite ok in the air, but what a huge difference in the responsiveness, especially on the landing flare. I could never figure out what other people were talking about when they talked about "dynamic flaring" technique, because the only thing that would get a Navigator into horizontal flight at the landing approach was to yank (more or less) the toggles down 2/3 of the way and wait for it to level out. If I was just a fraction of a second too late, that would not happen before my but hit the ground.
With the Spectre, when I start my flare, the canopy reacts IMMEDIATELY, so I can keep adjusting the flare as it happens to get me into horizontal at the perfect height and land smoothly under any wind conditions.
(I was told that this could also have to do with the stretchy lines that are used on the Navigators, at least at my DZ)

In any case: I would try lots of canopies before buying one--definitely try something other than Navigators (so you know at least 2 different types of canopies)

My most likely strategy after renting is: Buy a new container sized for me (possibly with reserve, MARD/RSL, AAD but WITHOUT a main canopy) sized for the main I want (I can't see a reason to go below 230 right now) and then rent, borrow and demo lots of mains before buying a used or new one for the container.

Also: Don't do anything before you take at least one canopy course. It'll likely change your flying and landing style completely.

PS: I love the Spectre right now but it takes a tremendous amount of time to open (my guess is close to 1000 ft. and I'm not sure if I like that--certainly love how softly it opens, but burning 1000 feet?! Before trying it I could not have imagined that there can be such a difference in how canopies open) so again: You gotta try some different ones before you even know what differences are out there!

PPS: I jump at over 5000-6000 ft AMSL, so that's another reason why I might not go under 230 for a while.


(This post was edited by mbohu on Nov 9, 2017, 6:37 PM)


mxk  (D 36227)

Nov 10, 2017, 12:54 PM
Post #9 of 22 (1670 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

HammerinHank wrote:
I know I値l eventually get to a 190

Maybe you will, but you don't really know that. My exit weight is 255 lbs. Started AFF on Nav 300, finished on Nav 240. Continued renting it for more than 100 jumps and got Spectre 230 in my own rig. I'm still happy with it more than 500 jumps later. I demoed Storm 210 about a year ago and decided to stick with what I have for now. My jumps are split 50/50 between RW and wingsuit, and there have been plenty of WS jumps where I was very happy to be under the bigger canopy.

You can have one or two hundred perfect landings in a row, at which point you definitely start thinking that you've mastered this canopy and can consider something smaller, but then you'll have that one less-than-perfect landing that will remind you of things you still have to learn. At least that's been my experience.


mbohu  (A License)

Nov 10, 2017, 2:10 PM
Post #10 of 22 (1626 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mxk] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you have to get a different kind of container for the Wingsuit, or have you been able to continue to use the same complete system you originally bought, when you started getting into WS?
If so, are there any criteria that make a container more or less usable for WS?


mxk  (D 36227)

Nov 10, 2017, 2:47 PM
Post #11 of 22 (1609 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mbohu] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

mbohu wrote:
Did you have to get a different kind of container for the Wingsuit, or have you been able to continue to use the same complete system you originally bought, when you started getting into WS?
If so, are there any criteria that make a container more or less usable for WS?

Same container, just requested a wingsuit-length (9 ft) bridle for the main pilot chute. You must have a throw-out instead of pull-out PC, but that's the norm today anyway. Another option is fully or partially open corners at the bottom of the container, which may improve d-bag extraction, but I opted not to do this and haven't had any problems.


Bob_Church  (D 8195)

Nov 10, 2017, 4:50 PM
Post #12 of 22 (1549 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

HammerinHank wrote:
Just finished AFF two weeks ago. I知 now at 45 jumps. Started AFF at 237 lbs. Flying a 300. I知 now 221 lbs. Then a 280, 260 and flew a 240 twice. Didn稚 seem any different to me than the 260. I have a chance to buy a rig with a 240 nav. I know I値l eventually get to a 190 but don稚 wanna keep renting since I値l nothing to show for it in the end. What size should I be looking for ? Am i waisting my money on the 240 ? Should I go lower ? All opinions are appreciated than you.

I'm just curious about something, no offense, no big thing. But how did you decide that you would get to 190?

Thanks
Bob


HammerinHank

Nov 10, 2017, 8:56 PM
Post #13 of 22 (1485 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Bob_Church] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

what I have come to and you can tell me If this sounds good or not. But a new Javelin container for a 190. With a 190 reserve. And demo main canopies starting with a low bulk pulse 230. Correct me if I知 wrong but a pulse 230 is kinda where I知 at now. So down the road I値l be able to downsize


HammerinHank

Nov 10, 2017, 9:02 PM
Post #14 of 22 (1481 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Bob. Not offended at all. I知 a newbie so I don稚 know half of what I知 saying. I知 just going by what I see others doing and what size they are and size rigs.


Maddingo

Nov 11, 2017, 2:45 AM
Post #15 of 22 (1435 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't do it. Don't buy a 190 Javelin and stuff a 230 Pulse in it. You will curse every packing and hesitation on opening. Not worth it, wrote about it in another thread when I packed a 250 pilot into a max 230 icon.

Also, a Pulse 230 and a Nav 240 are a totally different beast. No, you are not somwhere around Pulse since you've flown only student canopies. You are going into totally unknown territory. Which is fun, but don't evaluate canopies based on your previos experience. It's the same as if I would say a 190 square was fine, I'm in the range of a 170 elliptical now.


(This post was edited by Maddingo on Nov 11, 2017, 2:56 AM)


Bob_Church  (D 8195)

Nov 11, 2017, 11:12 AM
Post #16 of 22 (1321 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

HammerinHank wrote:
Bob. Not offended at all. I知 a newbie so I don稚 know half of what I知 saying. I知 just going by what I see others doing and what size they are and size rigs.

Thanks for the info. I weight 175 and jump a 210 Hornet. I can remember, long ago, when calling a canopy High Performance meant that it probably WOULDN'T kill you. Another problem with downsizing too much (or at all) is that even if you don't get injured it can suck the fun out of the sport. I've seen at least one jumper quit because of it. Her boyfriend convinced her she needed to downsize if she wanted to be a real skydiver. After a few jumps on her new smaller canopy and mentioning how much it scared her she just sort of wondered away from the sport. She started finding other things she needed to do that weekend.

Bob


(This post was edited by Bob_Church on Nov 11, 2017, 11:16 AM)


HammerinHank

Nov 11, 2017, 11:19 AM
Post #17 of 22 (1315 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Bob_Church] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Well After more thought and talking extisivly with the Dealer. She is super honest become she coulda had my money today but she offered to have me do a demo first. So I have been Flying a 260 & 240 nav. I知 going to get a few more jumps in with my Instructor and then demo a 230 Pilot ZPX. Earlier when I said I was gonna stick a 230 into a 190 container. I知 not doing that. I知 going to do the recommendation form the pro shop


HPC

Nov 11, 2017, 5:50 PM
Post #18 of 22 (1208 views)
Shortcut
Re: [timrf79] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No one ever got hurt from having too much canopy.
True, but if the loading is too light wouldn't that reduce forward speed, and thus penetration on a breezy day?
Heck, a 95-lb jumper under 300 sq ft on a day with thermals could hover all day. Under much less loading, I once stayed in the air for quite some time during a summer jump.


Maddingo

Nov 12, 2017, 2:56 AM
Post #19 of 22 (1146 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion you will see the biggest increase in performance when you will transition to a 210. First you will notice the 230 sport canopies behave very reactive, but it will be a nice fresh breeze and fun. When you will step down to a 210, that responsive potential will increase two fold and you will go whoa, I wonder how a 135 Katana flies or how could I handle that in the future. :P


HammerinHank

Nov 14, 2017, 7:58 PM
Post #20 of 22 (749 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Maddingo] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Maddingo wrote:
Don't do it. Don't buy a 190 Javelin and stuff a 230 Pulse in it. You will curse every packing and hesitation on opening. Not worth it, wrote about it in another thread when I packed a 250 pilot into a max 230 icon.

Also, a Pulse 230 and a Nav 240 are a totally different beast. No, you are not somwhere around Pulse since you've flown only student canopies. You are going into totally unknown territory. Which is fun, but don't evaluate canopies based on your previos experience. It's the same as if I would say a 190 square was fine, I'm in the range of a 170 elliptical now.

I was told by a Rigger that a LOW Bulk canopy like a pulse would fit two sizes up. So saying a 210 LOW Bulk canopy can fit in a 170 container. Do you Not agree ? Cuz I guess the low bulk Canopy folds down smaller than a normal size.


(This post was edited by HammerinHank on Nov 14, 2017, 8:00 PM)


Maddingo

Nov 15, 2017, 9:10 AM
Post #21 of 22 (621 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HammerinHank] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

You could probably get away with that, but it's your sweat at the end. I was packing regular zp too big not low bulk, so yes I can say you could pack a 230 into a 210 if the fabric is low bulk and the lines are not dacron.


HammerinHank

Nov 16, 2017, 11:54 AM
Post #22 of 22 (459 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Maddingo] need advice on what Size Rig to get. Or not get [In reply to] Can't Post

Maddingo wrote:
You could probably get away with that, but it's your sweat at the end. I was packing regular zp too big not low bulk, so yes I can say you could pack a 230 into a 210 if the fabric is low bulk and the lines are not dacron.

Yeah. I知 just going to go by the Pro Shop recognition which is hat you guys were saying. Putting any canopy Low bulk or not two sizes is too much.



Forums : Skydiving : General Skydiving Discussions

 


Search for (options)