Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Pull at...whaaat?

 


Tigerfly  (A 81703)

Jul 7, 2017, 6:08 PM
Post #1 of 23 (8222 views)
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Pull at...whaaat? Can't Post

This may be the stupidest question asked so far but here goes. When someone asks what altitude you are pulling at, does it mean:
1.) when you start the wave off
2.) when your hand is on the hackey or maybe even
3.) when you should be under a fully inflated canopy.
I've always gone with #1...but i want to hear from the masses/stir the f***king pot/make myself sound even more stupid Laugh and i have heard different answers to this...I know it takes me about 2 seconds from starting wave off to hand on hackey so that could make a difference of a few hundred feet. I feel safer knowing exactly what "pull" means. Now that I think of it though maybe it's option 2. Crazy


yoink

Jul 7, 2017, 7:05 PM
Post #2 of 23 (8156 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Somewhere between 1 and 2.

The exact footage doesn't matter too much.


32fps2

Jul 7, 2017, 7:20 PM
Post #3 of 23 (8143 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

The purpose of the question is to get an idea of where your parachute is going to be deployed. Because they want to know what to expect so that they can avoid you.

So the most accurate estimate of that is when you throw out your pilot chute.

From wave off to pull could be several seconds, which is 350 feet off.


Alexg3265  (D License)

Jul 8, 2017, 5:09 PM
Post #4 of 23 (7901 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

The "what are you pulling at" question annoys me to no end... unless its a high pull it doesnt mean two fucking shits what youre planning on pulling at... vertical separation doesnt mean shit when you lost altitute awarness and pull 1000 ft low, or have a cutaway, or have a premature opening or you have a 1300ft snivel and someone else has a hard opening.... horizontal separation is everything... you wait in the fucking door till your absolutely sure you have enough... and dont fucking track up jump run....know what people are moving and what people are doing on the load. again, vertical stacking is fucking retarded "because well hes pulling at 3.5 and im pulling at 5 so its all good i can go right after them.... rant over


Anachronist

Jul 8, 2017, 9:11 PM
Post #5 of 23 (7788 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's just a ballpark number, between 1 and 2 is right, and it is only a problem if you pull higher.

From a Wingsuit perspective it matters more than for most others, we often pull at different altitudes even within the same group. We also fly in really really bad places relative to each other for someone to deploy. In the group it amounts to "give them some space at x altitude" or "if so and so starts drifting off it is because he is going to pull." Outside of our group we are looking for obstacles. If someone is pulling at 3k or lower we don't care, but pulling higher means some of us might be below you in freefall while you are under canopy, we don't want to hit you Tongue and it helps if we are expecting canopies above our pull altitude. Also, horizontal group separation/exit order means nothing in a wingsuit, we often are making our final (in freefall) headed on a path that will intersect with jump run. Flying over canopies (because they have had time to deviate from jump run too) is common.

For hop and pops and most other jumps Alex is right, it doesn't matter. But if you have 2 similar groups and one is pulling higher than the other, a little vertical separation is a good thing too.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 9, 2017, 10:41 AM
Post #6 of 23 (7636 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Show a pilot-chute above 2,500 feet.


evh  (D License)

Jul 9, 2017, 2:57 PM
Post #7 of 23 (7521 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a good question. For me, I always interpreted it as "the moment I let go of my hackey".

I also agree that it shouldn't matter much, in most situations at least.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 10, 2017, 10:08 AM
Post #8 of 23 (7118 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

>horizontal separation is everything

Both are important. Horizontal separation is (and should be) primary, but vertical separation can mean the difference between a foolish mistake and a fatality.

And, of course, in some cases (large formations for example) it can be the only way to guarantee enough separation to get everyone open safely.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 10, 2017, 11:37 AM
Post #9 of 23 (7062 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tigerfly wrote:
This may be the stupidest question asked so far but here goes. When someone asks what altitude you are pulling at, does it mean...

Not the stupidest question by a very large margin.

Sandy Grillet once said:

Quote:
There's no need to apologize for your ignorance, unless you do nothing to correct it.

This fits that to a "tee."
(I told you I was gonna steal that one, Sandy Wink)

USPA calls it "Pack opening altitude", which means PC out and at bridle stretch, pin pulled.

A fraction of a second after PC toss. So I would go with "When you toss the PC." After all, putting your hand on it or even pulling it doesn't necessarily mean you've thrown it.

As always, not an instructor, no warranty express or implied, consult your physician if you are up for over 4 hours, close cover before striking, contains flammable gas under pressure.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 28, 2017, 4:57 AM
Post #10 of 23 (5968 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
The "what are you pulling at" question annoys me to no end...
I agree with the safety aspect. Skydivers should NOT use vertical separation.

However, I often ask that question when jumping with newer skydivers. Many of these AFF trained people want to deploy at crazy high altitudes. I'm trying to find a compromise altitude.


dthames  (D 34390)

Jul 28, 2017, 10:22 AM
Post #11 of 23 (5797 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
The "what are you pulling at" question annoys me to no end... unless its a high pull it doesnt mean two fucking shits what youre planning on pulling at... vertical separation doesnt mean shit when you lost altitute awarness and pull 1000 ft low, or have a cutaway, or have a premature opening or you have a 1300ft snivel and someone else has a hard opening.... horizontal separation is everything... you wait in the fucking door till your absolutely sure you have enough... and dont fucking track up jump run....know what people are moving and what people are doing on the load. again, vertical stacking is fucking retarded "because well hes pulling at 3.5 and im pulling at 5 so its all good i can go right after them.... rant over

When I am planning to fly my WS below 3K before I pitch, I like to know how many open canopies might be on my level or above me.


sammielu  (D 33923)

Jul 28, 2017, 10:47 AM
Post #12 of 23 (5785 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Somewhere between 1 & 2. For breakoff planning it's pretty important to know and to check that everyone has a normal plan to stop the skydive, track away, stop tracking, and wave, reach, pull. I've heard some wacky stuff here and there that makes me sure to ask with every new group I jump with.


LeeroyJenkins  (D License)

Jul 28, 2017, 5:30 PM
Post #13 of 23 (5653 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the SIM when they say minimum pull altitude they mean that altitude the pin is out of the container. In general the way I see people using it, it mean the altitude they reach at.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Aug 2, 2017, 8:58 AM
Post #14 of 23 (5259 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
The "what are you pulling at" question annoys me to no end... rant over

I always ask this, and NO it does not change my intent on horizontal sep.
I ask for two reasons...
1. I ASSUME that at some point, SOMEONE is going to f-up on the horizontal and/or track the wrong way. If we know the intended pull alt, we can ADD the safety of vertical sep with horizontal sep.

2. Once open, knowing where people intended to open gives me a headsup as to where to start looking for people in the stack.

This is NOT a case (nor should it EVER be) of letting the horiz sep slip.

JW


fcajump  (D 15598)

Aug 2, 2017, 9:03 AM
Post #15 of 23 (5256 views)
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Re: [Tigerfly] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tigerfly wrote:
When someone asks what altitude you are pulling at, does it mean:
1.) when you start the wave off
2.) when your hand is on the hackey or maybe even
3.) when you should be under a fully inflated canopy.

When I ask, I mean #2+ (i.e. thrown)
But I go back to a time when "pulling at" usually meant 2k' for most all the jumpers on the DZ (2,5k and 3k for lower licenses). That means that the difference between 1,2 or 3 was important.

When you're getting good horiz sep and planning to pull at 4,500', its not quite as specific.

JW


ixlr82  (C 33491)

Aug 16, 2017, 12:18 AM
Post #16 of 23 (4608 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
and dont fucking track up jump run....

Sorry for the slight highjack but...absolutely do track up jump run if that is the direction you need to track to get away from your 16 way. No more and no less than is necessary to gain adequate opening separation from your group. Then fly your canopy off the line of flight until you see the next group open.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 17, 2017, 9:44 AM
Post #17 of 23 (4205 views)
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Re: [LeeroyJenkins] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

LeeroyJenkins wrote:
According to the SIM when they say minimum pull altitude they mean that altitude the pin is out of the container. In general the way I see people using it, it mean the altitude they reach at.

You have control over the altitude at which you release the pilot chute.

The altitude at which the pack opens is subject to a number of additional variables that can be quite unpredictable.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 21, 2017, 10:51 AM
Post #18 of 23 (3676 views)
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Re: [ixlr82] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

ixlr82 wrote:
Quote:
and dont fucking track up jump run....

Sorry for the slight highjack but...absolutely do track up jump run if that is the direction you need to track to get away from your 16 way. No more and no less than is necessary to gain adequate opening separation from your group. Then fly your canopy off the line of flight until you see the next group open.

There is no such thing as tracking "no more" than is necessary to gain adequate separation unless the breakoff is abnormally high. A typical group has 1,500 to 2,000 feet of altitude available to gain horizontal separation. Every inch of it should be used to track as hard and as far as possible.

Additionally, a group should never exit so close that the group before has to restrict tracking distance to avoid interaction with them. If adequate separation is given between groups it is perfectly safe to track up the jump run (and down the jump run for the following group).


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 23, 2017, 8:41 AM
Post #19 of 23 (3250 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
Additionally, a group should never exit so close that the group before has to restrict tracking distance to avoid interaction with them. If adequate separation is given between groups it is perfectly safe to track up the jump run (and down the jump run for the following group).
You're right, but I still hedge my bets. I've seen "following groups" not give me quite the time they should have, or maybe have winds aloft greater than expected.

And besides, you should see me track!! Amazing! Laugh


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Aug 23, 2017, 9:24 AM
Post #20 of 23 (3224 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And besides, you should see me track!! Amazing!

I have a friend like that. Extreme tracker. Once I was on a two way behind an 8 way he was on. The video clearly shows a full 15 second exit separation, which was what the conditions called for. The 8 way did not go all that well and broke a little high. My friend tracked a little longer, maybe 3 or 4 seconds longer than normal. Shortly after opening my fisheye lens video shows him coming almost straight at me with a not quite fully open canopy. Close enough to fill about half of the frame. Only luck saved both of us.

It's not always the "following group's" fault. Large groups can sometimes have members that track into other groups if they do not maintain discipline. On the other hand, Brian Burke pointed out when he reviewed the video that as a two way group there was no need for me to track up the jumprun.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 23, 2017, 9:26 PM
Post #21 of 23 (3065 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

gowlerk wrote:
On the other hand, Brian Burke pointed out when he reviewed the video that as a two way group there was no need for me to track up the jumprun.
LaughLaugh It's hard to get much past Brian, isn't it?

I do a lot of small way, from coaching and AFF to 4 way. On breakoff, I always try to track as perpendicular to jump run as safely possible.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 28, 2017, 9:33 AM
Post #22 of 23 (2474 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is no such thing as tracking "no more" than is necessary to gain adequate separation unless the breakoff is abnormally high. A typical group has 1,500 to 2,000 feet of altitude available to gain horizontal separation. Every inch of it should be used to track as hard and as far as possible.

I disagree.

I track until I am clear of other jumpers and then deploy. No more, no less. I want to deploy as high as possible to deal with traffic, long spots, winds, malfunctions, etc. If I have to track longer than normal to get separation, I will. If I safely can track less and deploy higher, I will. I do not have a set pull altitude. It varies jump to jump depending on circumstances.

Derek V


mik  (D 11111)

Aug 29, 2017, 7:47 AM
Post #23 of 23 (2263 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Pull at...whaaat? [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
ixlr82 wrote:
Quote:
and dont fucking track up jump run....

Sorry for the slight highjack but...absolutely do track up jump run if that is the direction you need to track to get away from your 16 way. No more and no less than is necessary to gain adequate opening separation from your group. Then fly your canopy off the line of flight until you see the next group open.

There is no such thing as tracking "no more" than is necessary to gain adequate separation unless the breakoff is abnormally high. A typical group has 1,500 to 2,000 feet of altitude available to gain horizontal separation. Every inch of it should be used to track as hard and as far as possible.

Additionally, a group should never exit so close that the group before has to restrict tracking distance to avoid interaction with them. If adequate separation is given between groups it is perfectly safe to track up the jump run (and down the jump run for the following group).

Wasn't there a fatality / dual fatalities a couple of years ago attributed to a collision between jumpers from separate groups and one / both tracking hard and fast? I don't remember it involving people tracking up / down the jump run. My flawed memory suggests it may have been people tracking at an angle from the jump run, perhaps a little too far. I am sure someone on here will have a better recollection than I / will know how to find / link to the incident I have in mind.



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