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Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down?

 

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Fall0ut

Aug 18, 2014, 4:47 AM
Post #1 of 27 (5428 views)
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Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? Can't Post

Check out the attached picture. This guy experiences a two-out after deploying his main leading to a biplane with a twisted reserve. (broken reserve loop like the video title suggests?)

Now the general rule is "do not cut away a biplane" because things could seriously entangle.

On the other hand, the twisted reserve might behave funny and lead to different problems if it suddenly "untwists" .. maybe even a downplane?

This guy got lucky in this situation, no entanglement on cutaway.

How would you react? Cut away or ride that crap down?

Video: http://youtu.be/t_JsVQ5eFSE
Attachments: two-out.jpg (81.9 KB)


mcstain  (B 8181)

Aug 18, 2014, 4:56 AM
Post #2 of 27 (5376 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh man, that's ugly. I don't know what the best thing to do would be, but my first instinct would be to cutaway and hope that I could get out of the line twists after the main (hopefully) departs. That's presuming I'm above my hard deck. Below that I really don't know what I'd do. Thanks for posting this, I'll be chatting with my instructors to get their advice next time I'm at the DZ.


Deimian

Aug 18, 2014, 5:27 AM
Post #3 of 27 (5296 views)
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Re: [mcstain] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not sure the hard deck even matters here. I mean, your hard deck is there to cut away your main and have enough altitude to deploy your reserve safely. In this case the reserve is already deployed, so I am not sure if the hard deck is really relevant. Keeping in mind that obviously the highest the better.


Bluhdow  (B 37052)

Aug 18, 2014, 9:37 AM
Post #4 of 27 (4983 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy sh*t.

My instinct says to try to cut away the main if/when it creeps away from the reserve. If it's not really moving much, I'd still want to watch it's behavior and try to chop it at it's furthest point.

Overall...ugly. Any insight into how this occurred? Low pull w/ Cypres fire?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 18, 2014, 9:39 AM
Post #5 of 27 (4975 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Questions you have to ask yourself:

1) Is it relatively stable and will it land me safely? If yes, keep it. If not:

2) Can I get them to separate via risers/toggles/weight shift, AND is reserve in good enough shape to land me safely? If so, cut away. If not:

3) Time to learn mid-air rigging, and/or do what you can to aim yourself towards something soft.


mcstain  (B 8181)

Aug 18, 2014, 6:32 PM
Post #6 of 27 (4619 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Deimian wrote:
I am not sure the hard deck even matters here. I mean, your hard deck is there to cut away your main and have enough altitude to deploy your reserve safely. In this case the reserve is already deployed, so I am not sure if the hard deck is really relevant. Keeping in mind that obviously the highest the better.

Yeah this is a good point. I guess hard deck was the wrong term to use here. I was more referring to the idea of an altitude at which I commit to landing with more nylon over my head versus attempting to cutaway. As others have brought up though, this biplane could potentially turn into a downplane so I guess it's a situation that you need to constantly keep monitoring until you're on the ground.

Will definitely be bringing this up with instructors next time I'm at the DZ.


yoink

Aug 18, 2014, 6:50 PM
Post #7 of 27 (4603 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill's got my thought process down I think.

I'd definitely mess with it less than a typical bipane.

Is it flying stable? If so, then very, very gently aim for the nearest large open area I think I'll hit with no inputs. I wouldn't try and fly it around.


If they're squirrely, I'd try and induce a downplane and cut away then hope like hell the main leaves cleanly and I'd probably need a new pair of pants when I landed.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 18, 2014, 7:19 PM
Post #8 of 27 (4574 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Without reading the other replies, I say keep the main and fly it. It looks like the reserve, even though with line twists, is following the main. I would be on hair trigger alert for that thing to split to a downplane. I'd certainly locate my cutaway handle early.

Remember where those main risers go if you chop. Straight back into your last parachute. I know someone who died chopping a biplane. Unsure


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 18, 2014, 7:22 PM
Post #9 of 27 (4567 views)
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Re: [mcstain] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

mcstain wrote:
this biplane could potentially turn into a downplane so I guess it's a situation that you need to constantly keep monitoring until you're on the ground.
This one? Maybe unstable.

Standard biplanes tend to be pretty stable. I've seen 2 landed in the last month or so. Please read my post above about chopping a biplane.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 18, 2014, 7:29 PM
Post #10 of 27 (4552 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Remember where those main risers go if you chop. Straight back into your last parachute. I know someone who died chopping a biplane. Unsure

I wonder if it is practical to put one arm up to push against both sets of main risers, so that when they release they would fly up and away from the reserve, instead of flopping around more randomly where they would more likely foul with the reserve.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 18, 2014, 7:32 PM
Post #11 of 27 (4541 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good idea but my arms are only a couple of feet or so long. After that they have a long time to entangle my reserve.

Maybe try to steer the main into a down plane first.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Aug 18, 2014, 7:54 PM
Post #12 of 27 (4519 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:

Maybe try to steer the main into a down plane first.

As a noob maybe Im wrong. But if you look closely doesnt it appear he did this? In the video, the main appears out to his right hand side a few seconds before he chops it. So either maybe he did it on purpose or it started to downplane on its on?


evan.severson  (A 71556)

Aug 18, 2014, 8:40 PM
Post #13 of 27 (4465 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had this exact malfunction this weekend. On mine the canopies stayed together pretty well and I landed with both still attached, flying with the main.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Aug 18, 2014, 8:45 PM
Post #14 of 27 (4460 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say cut the damn reserve away and fly the main.

Main is flying in front of the reserve and it is really difficult to swoop the reserve with that annoying flappy slider.

What else are you gonna use your hook knife for? Besides cutting rubber bands off from your d-bag.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 18, 2014, 10:07 PM
Post #15 of 27 (4378 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug_Davis wrote:
JohnMitchell wrote:

Maybe try to steer the main into a down plane first.

As a noob maybe Im wrong. But if you look closely doesnt it appear he did this? In the video, the main appears out to his right hand side a few seconds before he chops it. So either maybe he did it on purpose or it started to downplane on its on?
I hadn't seen the video. Just looked at the pic.

Yes, after FFWDing thru the whole thing, it appears to split to at least a healthy side-by-side. In that case, it's safe to chop. It would not be safe to chop as a biplane, as shown in the picture. Thanks for calling my attention to the "rest of the story".


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Aug 19, 2014, 9:01 AM
Post #16 of 27 (4048 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you've ever done a down plane (CRW) you know how fast the two canopies fly away from each other after you release. I've always told myself (this advice is not for students) that I'd induce a down plane and then cut away from a two out.

However, I guess I never thought about line twist in a two out??? This definitely creates cause for concern. So, who's up for some "line twist CRW"? Cool


Woofie

Aug 19, 2014, 10:15 AM
Post #17 of 27 (3973 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
...a healthy side-by-side. In that case, it's safe to chop. It would not be safe to chop as a biplane

Why is a side-by-side safe to cut-away? As soon as you release the main, the canopy and jumper return to center of gravity, which means the reserve canopy quickly slides over towards the main which was just cut-away. And it seems I've seen that example on that Gold Knights two-out video, where the departing risers and rings have a good opportunity to entangle in the lines of the remaining reserve, as it moves into it's previous airspace. And then you would have a whole cut-away canopy dragging on your reserve, possibly inflated, and distorting the reserve to dangerous proportions.


(This post was edited by Woofie on Aug 19, 2014, 10:16 AM)


evan85  (C 41367)

Aug 19, 2014, 1:55 PM
Post #18 of 27 (3817 views)
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Re: [Woofie] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

This was also my understanding -- don't cutaway unless in a downplane. Biplane or side-by-side: don't release toggles, steer dominant canopy with rears, etc.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 19, 2014, 2:06 PM
Post #19 of 27 (3806 views)
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Re: [Woofie] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The cutaway/don't cutaway from a two out debate has raged for many years. A very limited amount of testing has been done with the scenario, and the other information has come from real life situations. Too variable a sample.

You'll prolly get divided opinions on the "correct" procedure whoever you ask for advice. I wouldn't take any "decisive" advice you are given as gospel, no matter who gives it to you.

Too many variables generally make the cutaway/don't cutaway argument a 50/50 proposition.

What it boils down to is there is no right or wrong answer.

What you get away with today, with identical circumstances, could well kill you tomorrow.

You just have to assess the situation, keep cool, and be ready with a plan B should things get nasty.

Inputting toggles or risers to make something happen if you have two inflated canopies that are stable is prolly not a good idea.

When impacting the planet, the more drag inducing material you have above your head the better. How hard you impact in that scenario can ultimately boil down to how much luck you are having that day. Hopefully the luck is the good variety, rather than bad. It doesn't always have to be bad.

Talking to experienced CRW dogs is a good idea if you can do so. They have some experience of flying canopies in close proximity to each other. You may pick up a gem that may just save your life.

Stay cool. Assess the situation, have a plan A, and a plan B as well, and be ready to execute them in a timely manner as the situation requires.

And like any other emergency, freaking out is not one of the options.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Aug 19, 2014, 2:12 PM)


mcordell  (C 42471)

Aug 19, 2014, 5:17 PM
Post #20 of 27 (3667 views)
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Re: [evan85] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is another exception to that. I chopped a bi-plane but it was induced by an improperly rigged collapsible pc that caused a pc in tow. It pulled the pin but didn't extract the bag so I deployed the reserve and the opening of the reserve dumped my main which inflated behind my reserve. In that rig I have a 210 Sabre 2 and a raven I so there is a pretty big size and performance difference. Since my main was to the rear I safely chopped it.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Aug 19, 2014, 6:58 PM
Post #21 of 27 (3605 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
that I'd induce a down plane and then cut away from a two out.

That same plan killed an Australian jumper last year. Had an aad fire while doing a HP manoeuvre, opened into a stable 2 out, induced a down plane and went in under a down plane with his hand on the cutaway...


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 19, 2014, 7:25 PM
Post #22 of 27 (3587 views)
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Re: [Woofie] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

Woofie wrote:
JohnMitchell wrote:
Why is a side-by-side safe to cut-away? As soon as you release the main, the canopy and jumper return to center of gravity, which means the reserve canopy quickly slides over towards the main which was just cut-away. And it seems I've seen that example on that Gold Knights two-out video, where the departing risers and rings have a good opportunity to entangle in the lines of the remaining reserve, as it moves into it's previous airspace. And then you would have a whole cut-away canopy dragging on your reserve, possibly inflated, and distorting the reserve to dangerous proportions.
I've seen the same video and talked with my friend who was one of the test jumpers. I don't think I perceived it the same way you did. When there's the chop, the jumper's body swings away from the main, under the reserve, not towards the departing canopy.

But a side by side can be landed if you're careful. If that's what you prefer, sure.

Do you have a link to that video? It's been a few years.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Aug 20, 2014, 9:02 AM
Post #23 of 27 (3367 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

hcsvader wrote:
Quote:
that I'd induce a down plane and then cut away from a two out.

That same plan killed an Australian jumper last year. Had an aad fire while doing a HP manoeuvre, opened into a stable 2 out, induced a down plane and went in under a down plane with his hand on the cutaway...

As always.... Altitude awareness is critical! But, good point.


Woofie

Aug 20, 2014, 9:52 AM
Post #24 of 27 (3319 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
Woofie wrote:
Why is a side-by-side safe to cut-away? As soon as you release the main, the canopy and jumper return to center of gravity, which means the reserve canopy quickly slides over towards the main which was just cut-away. And it seems I've seen that example on that Gold Knights two-out video, where the departing risers and rings have a good opportunity to entangle in the lines of the remaining reserve, as it moves into it's previous airspace. And then you would have a whole cut-away canopy dragging on your reserve, possibly inflated, and distorting the reserve to dangerous proportions.

I've seen the same video and talked with my friend who was one of the test jumpers. I don't think I perceived it the same way you did. When there's the chop, the jumper's body swings away from the main, under the reserve, not towards the departing canopy.

After cutting-away from one canopy, the jumper and canopy return to equilibrium under the remaining canopy. The jumper swings sideways to get underneath the canopy, and the canopy also swings sideways in the other direction to get over top the jumper. Both components move.

I think the last time I saw that video it was on a VCR tape...


potatoman  (Student)

Aug 27, 2014, 3:10 AM
Post #25 of 27 (2471 views)
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Re: [Fall0ut] Two-out.. biplane with twisted reserve. Cut away or ride it down? [In reply to] Can't Post

The main seems 7cell.

Main and reserve seems to be seperated. Only line twist on the reserve.

Chop might entangle main with reserve.

Never thought I would say this, but it sure seems a blade on the reserve might just work out fine. Once you cut one side, the rest should just drag behind you from the other riser side.


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