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Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs?

 

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hackish  (No License)

Jul 17, 2014, 6:09 PM
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Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? Can't Post

This came as a bit of a surprise to me but I think we've been packing these rigs wrong since day one. I found the instructions ambiguous so I spoke with the manufacturer. Al said nobody has ever had a question about the packing method.

How do you normally route the bridle? Do you exit above or below the right flap? Then to the closing loop, down and over to the BOC.

-Michael


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jul 17, 2014, 6:57 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

We have 10 as student rigs. My wife jumps one as well. The manual, and Al says to route it out the bottom before you close the side flaps. Most people do it the other way and get good results.

If you still have the original bridle it will have both hook and loop velcro sewn to it to form a slack tab. Containers that close the other way usually have velcro sewn to the top flap that mates to some sewn to the bridal. But many rigs have long had the p/c bridal replaced by a generic one anyway.


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Jul 17, 2014, 7:33 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 17, 2014, 7:08 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the manual was pretty clear that it uses the traditional Vector method, "from the top down, above the right flap"? The manual that's on Flying High's site is still the traditional 2001 one. (Are we looking at the same document??)

One could guess that one could just as well come up from under the flap, to the pin, and back down, as is now allowed by UPT. Whether or not it is in the manual for Flying High. I'd think Al would be happy to sort it out in any case.


Fling  (C 3265)

Jul 17, 2014, 7:11 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good evening Michael,

I have a couple of Sidewinders. Page 6 of the manual says "bridle exiting the container between top and bottom flaps..." it does NOT say between the top and right side flap which "above the right flap" would be.

Closing a Sidewinder is very easy: bottom, then top with the bridle exiting directly out the bottom away from the container (to the right of the closing loop of course), then left. right, pin. I fold the velcro to allow slack in the bridle to permit the pin to be pulled. The window confirming kill line position is then clearly visible on top.

I've heard that the new/old method for Vectors is the same. I'm only one data point but this has worked without issue for me since the Eighties Smile

-Alan


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 17, 2014, 7:58 PM
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Re: [Fling] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I now see you and hackish are right:
The manual's picture sure looks like a 'down from the top' pack job, but a careful reading of the text shows that it is unclear exactly how it is supposed to work, top down or bottom up.

Given that there are two velcro pieces on the bridle that squeeze together to provide slack, the drawing could be representing either method, because as it says, "the bridle folds above the pin".

That does suggest bottom up is actually the correct way. (But I haven't had regular experience with Sidewinders.)


hackish  (No License)

Jul 18, 2014, 5:59 AM
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Re: Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not like ambiguity. In our case we had a PCIT, probably because the bridle wrapped the stopper tab on itself so the question was not just for aesthetics.

Between the top and bottom flap does not explicitly say either. The diagram is also not very clear. With line art you can't tell if it's drawn to show a loop or simply the bridle traveling down. Our packers have always packed it like the traditional vector method but if I understood Al correctly it is in fact supposed to exit at the bottom of the right flap, come up to the loop then back down.


-Michael


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jul 18, 2014, 6:10 AM
Post #7 of 26 (2454 views)
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you do not like ambiguity do it the way Al says. The manual is in no way ambiguous to me. You are understanding Al correctly now. The reason for your PCIT on the other hand is very ambiguous. But at least you are not putting it in a manual!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 18, 2014, 1:48 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

... it is ... supposed to exit at the bottom of the right flap, come up to the loop then back down.


-Michael............................................................................

Agreed!
... and is the latest method recommended by Vector. UPT (aka the Vector factory) changed their packing method to reduce the risk of curved pins puncturing kill-line bridles ... and causing malfunctions.

Sidewinders were always supposed to be packed with the bridle exiting the bottom edge of the right main flap, then routing upwards to the pin, etc.
You can tell the difference by how much Velcro is sewn to the Sidewinder bridle. Sidewinder bridles have a small piece of hook Velcro and a small piece of pile Velcro. The two pieces of Velcro are supposed to mate to each other.


hackish  (No License)

Jul 18, 2014, 3:14 PM
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Re: [gowlerk] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I understood correctly then our packers did it wrong but I need to understand the correct way and then talk to them to confirm this.

I have difficulty understanding Al on the phone so I'm still not sure if I got it. He was frustrated trying to explain it to me as well. Attached is the picture from the manual.

Here is the description from the manual:

Quote:
close the container: bottom, top, left side and then right side, with the bridle exiting the container between top and bottom flaps, to the RIGHT of the closing
loop. Mate the two small velcro tabs so the bridle folds above the pin, with the velcro at the top of the loop.

Between the top and bottom flaps is clear. Should it come out above the right side flap or below it? When the manual says "with the velcro at the top of the loop" then you might think it goes out above the right side flap as you would on a vector but I understood the opposite from Al.

Given that we had a student PCIT it is important to me to do my best with finding an answer. I don't mind sending the video to people privately as it's pretty graphic.

-Michael
Attachments: sw-pic1.jpg (9.56 KB)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jul 18, 2014, 3:53 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, in the picture the piece of bridle that appears to you to be coming across the top does not actually do so. It is actually just a short piece of bridle doubled up upon itself. The picture does not show it, but this is where the two pieces of velcro that mate together reside, this is usually called the slack tab.

Sometimes it's hard to explain something in words that is actually very simple if you could only see it, but here goes my attempt. First close the bottom and top flaps in the normal way. at this point the bridle must run straight down to the bottom of the container and out on a path to the right of the loop. After you run it straight down close the left and then the right flaps. then bring the pin up to the loop and pin it. Above the loop there will be the two pieces of velcro. The bridle will be doubled up and the rest of it stows in the normal way.

Or, see page 68 of the current Vector 3 manual. On the bottom of the page it shows the new alternate method of running the bridle. It is the same thing as the Sidewinder method. But the nice colour picture might help you.

A lot of words for a simple thing. I hope it helps you.


Fling  (C 3265)

Jul 18, 2014, 5:18 PM
Post #11 of 26 (2173 views)
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pictures being worth at least 1024 words...

It is unfortunate that the container is black as is the bridle but I hope this clears things up.
-Alan




Attachments: sw1.jpg (26.8 KB)
  sw2.jpg (21.2 KB)
  sw3.jpg (22.0 KB)


hackish  (No License)

Jul 18, 2014, 5:42 PM
Post #12 of 26 (2159 views)
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Re: [Fling] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fling wrote:
Pictures being worth at least 1024 words...

It is unfortunate that the container is black as is the bridle but I hope this clears things up.
-Alan

Thanks. I wish the manual was this clear. It was only for lack of a sentence describing where the bridle should exit. Tomorrow I will check the rigs we have and see if this is the procedure followed by the packers. I'll also see if I can reproduce the bridle lockup we observed using this method.

-Michael


Dokeman  (D License)

Jul 18, 2014, 5:59 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

all you had to say was close it like a racer


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jul 19, 2014, 6:21 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

riggerrob wrote:
... it is ... supposed to exit at the bottom of the right flap, come up to the loop then back down.


-Michael
............................................................................

Agreed!
... and is the latest method recommended by Vector. UPT (aka the Vector factory) changed their packing method to reduce the risk of curved pins puncturing kill-line bridles ... and causing malfunctions.

.
A bit off topic from the sidewinder but for UPT this routing is considered an alternate approved method of routing the bridle. It is not recommended or preferred over the other routing. Just an alternative which jumpers need to evAluate and choose for themselves


hackish  (No License)

Jul 20, 2014, 8:46 AM
Post #15 of 26 (1827 views)
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Re: Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I said "like a racer" without verifying that all racers are closed like that then I might also come to the wrong conclusion. I did say like the new vector closing method but unfortunately I think many people are not familiar with it.

I had a very small part in production of the new UPT manuals so I'm very familiar with what they say. I do think that they are now the gold standard.

Unfortunately, taking a step back and thinking about this issue for a long time it simply comes down to the Sidewinder manual itself. While I think they're a well constructed rig it's not reasonable to expect smaller manufacturers to be able to budget a production like this.

"Route the bridle from the deployment bag to the right side of the rig. Close the top, then the bottom flap. Route the bridle down and out the bottom of the rig. Close the left then the right flap. Mate the two small velcro tabs on the bridle and route it up and pin the closing loop. Ensure the velcro is above the main closing loop..."

No questions. Of course this discussion could be pointless anyway. Given the number of major rigging errors I found this year I have serious doubts that anyone even reads manuals anyway.

-Michael


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 20, 2014, 10:47 AM
Post #16 of 26 (1786 views)
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Re: [Fling] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

On those three pictures, I can see that the pin concave part is down and does not appear as a smiley. That can cause the pin to be extracted in the airplane. By solving a problem here one has created another !!!???


Hellis

Jul 20, 2014, 12:41 PM
Post #17 of 26 (1755 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

erdnarob wrote:
On those three pictures, I can see that the pin concave part is down and does not appear as a smiley. That can cause the pin to be extracted in the airplane. By solving a problem here one has created another !!!???


Sorry for my ignorance.. But why are sad smiley face pins more likely to get pulled in the airplane?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 20, 2014, 8:39 PM
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Re: [Hellis] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hellis wrote:
erdnarob wrote:
On those three pictures, I can see that the pin concave part is down and does not appear as a smiley. That can cause the pin to be extracted in the airplane. By solving a problem here one has created another !!!???


Sorry for my ignorance.. But why are sad smiley face pins more likely to get pulled in the airplane?

..............................................................................

Some people believe that "frowny face" curved pins are more likely to get knocked loose in the plane.
Those same people believe that "smiley face" pins are less likely to be knocked loose.

I believe that the difference is measured in nano-seconds.
Anyone who slams their rig around in the airplane is a .... insert politically-incorrect slur ... and should not be in the same airplane as me.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 20, 2014, 8:56 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

hackish wrote:
If I said "like a racer" ...

...............................................................................

Hah!
Hah!
Hah!

That is almost as funny as "... close in the normal manner ..."

Hah!
Hah!
Hah!


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 21, 2014, 1:50 PM
Post #20 of 26 (1445 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to disagree with riggerob but here is my explanation.

When you sit in an crowded jump airplane, contact between the back of your rig and the seat or another jumper already sat on the floor is common. That can put on your main closing pin some upward force. If the closing pin is pointing downward or having the concave side down, it can be moved or even extracted. To avoid that possibility, put your closing pin as a smiley (concave side up) or pointing upward. IMO it is why a lot of jumpers ask their fellows in the airplane before exit to check their main closing pin set up. The right set up of the closing pin is a preventative measure. You wouldn't believe how a little detail can make a big difference. The worst possible resulting scenario (and it has already happened) would be to have a premature deployment at the airplane door). Many years ago, in Canada, we have lost a tandem master and his student when the main Dbag fell down on the airplane step.
More over, when I was student and jumping out of Cessna, I was told to always protect my front reserve ripcord especially when other jumpers were "brushing" against me with their rig when moving in or out. Also I was told that in case somebody makes a rough contact in my back, to ask for another pin check. On the same idea, this is why when I had steel cable ripcord, I always put the 3 inches part near the ball ending into the ripcord handle pocket. Years ago in Germany it seems that one jumper didn't do that. Being out of the airplane and leaning against the fuselage for a FS exit, his ripcord cable ending ball was caught in a slot on the vertical edge of the door. He didn't notice. Ready, set, go...and his reserve deployed in the tail of the airpane...NOW is there still people to say ha, ha, ha...Crazy


Fling  (C 3265)

Jul 21, 2014, 2:59 PM
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Re: [erdnarob] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Andre,
For someone who repeatedly talks about being a physics teacher you have the most amazingly poor grasp of mechanics (and electronics reliability for that matter). You almost seem to enjoy spreading FUD.

Jeeez, try to help clarify what I felt was already quite clear in the manual and all that happens is people jump on you.

Don't worry Andre, I promise not to help out or contribute my dangerous ways around here any more.

Alan

edit for fat fingers :)


(This post was edited by Fling on Jul 21, 2014, 4:20 PM)


AlMacDonald

Jul 21, 2014, 6:47 PM
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Being the manufacturer of the Sidewinder, and making up the manual, I thought the instructions were very clear on closing the main container when comparing the text with the drawing. The colour photos of Fling's post show the correct closing. If the bridle was supposed to be routed under a sideflap it would have been mentioned in text and shown separately in another drawing. There was never a need for the bridle to be routed up above our side flaps..... that system was a throwback to the days of the original Wonderhog, where the bridle had to separate the velcro closing both side flaps together. I'm glad UPT has finally come around to doing it the way we did when first manufacturing rigs in 1979.

Michael, on your post at 5:59 AM your last sentence is not correct: the bridle exits between the top and bottom flap, not from under the right side flap. Once the flaps are all closed and the pin is inserted, then you can tuck the little extra bridle under the right side flap. When the rig is closed, it may LOOK like the bridle exits under the right side flap but that flap is just hiding where the bridle actually exits the container. Fling's first photo shows this really well. Riggerrob also incorrectly says the bridle exits the container under the right sideflap.

After writing this manual I sent it out to a number of experts in the industry for feedback before printing it. Some of the feedback was very helpful and in some instances I changed what I had written. Some feedback was a little less so but worthy of a hard second look. All of us missed a mistake in a diagram that was very important and I only stumbled onto it 5 years after the fact. Comment from one senior member of the TSC was this was the best manual he had ever seen.

The manual was specifically done with line drawings at great expense to Flying High. The logic was: at that time most of the other manuals were using black and white photos that did not reproduce well, and many were poor right from the factory. Many riggers had manuals that were photocopies of a photocopy, and very difficult to even read the text let alone trying to decipher what was going on in the photos. Photos can be difficult to highlight the points you want, whereas with line drawings it is relatively easy to use artistic license to exaggerate detail or size to make a point. Remember in 1992 there was no internet in wide use, so no websites to put your free high resolution colour photos on.

My apologies to anyone who didn't find my drawings and explanation crystal clear..... I really thought I had covered it well. I hope all are satisfied with the correct way to route the main bridle now. A tip of the hat to Michael for chasing this down to his satisfaction.


hackish  (No License)

Jul 21, 2014, 11:41 PM
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Re: [AlMacDonald] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Al,

I think to compare the manual with others created in the late 1970's it is fair to say that it is better than most for the reasons you explained.

I think the challenge in communicating this idea occurs when you say "with the bridle exiting the container between top and bottom flaps, to the RIGHT of the closing loop."

The reader would typically interpret this as the bridle exiting laterally to the right side of the closing loop, not traveling from the deployment bag straight down and out the rig passing on the right hand side of the closing loop. To further compound the misunderstanding, this instruction is also consistent with many other rigs.

I'm sure you can now understand my repeated question: ok, so after it comes out between the top and bottom flaps should come out of the rig above or below the right side flap? The question of course wouldn't make sense to you with the intended meaning of the instruction.

I believe the problem has been rectified but won't have a chance to re-test the bag lock until the spare parts can be made and sent. If only this new technology could allow the parts to be emailed into my inbox.

-Michael


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jul 22, 2014, 7:50 AM
Post #24 of 26 (1164 views)
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Re: [hackish] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

You may need to consider the fact that of all who have posted about this matter only you have expressed any confusion from reading the manual. Everyone else seems to have got it just fine. Although the exact words used have been in question.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 22, 2014, 10:54 AM
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Re: [Fling] Anyone else running Sidewinder rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Contrary to what you write, I was not talking about the Sidewinder manual. I know Al, he is a careful person.
I made comments about the main closing pin set up in general as seen on the pictures (unfortunately...your pictures) and better yet, I answered the Swedish (Hellis) guy who were asking explanations which is the purpose of this forum. If you read carefully my post, you could see that it is based on facts. MAIN CLOSING PINS DO MOVE IN THE AIRPLANE. I have seen pack opening in the airplane. It can be caused by a too slack closing loop or/and by the closing pin being "brushed" or a combination of both.
One has not to be a rocket scientist to understand this potential problem. Have good and safe jumpsWink


(This post was edited by erdnarob on Jul 22, 2014, 10:56 AM)


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