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Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old?

 

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Torch690

Jul 10, 2014, 7:21 AM
Post #1 of 29 (2968 views)
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Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? Can't Post

Hello,

I am relatively new to the sport, and have about 70 jumps in 3 months. I have ordered a container, and am looking at a main parachute.

I have spotted a Sabre 2 190ft^2 which is from 2002. It is roughly $1250 with around 700 jumps on it and a new(er) lineset.

First (and main) question: has the Sabre 2 parachute changed in the last 12 years? I plan to have this parachute for at least this year and next year, before I downsize. While I would like to save the money, I am a little hesitant that the technology may have changed in the last decade, and considering that maybe I should spend a little more, and get a parachute that was manufactured within the last few years.

Secondly, according to the post, the brake line may be a little frayed from the alti strap. Is this normal? am I going to have to spend an additional $200 immedately to get new brake lines? (assuming fraying not too bad)

What should I keep in mind when looking at the possibility of purchasing this parachute?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

thanks very much!

-Dave


lyosha  (A License)

Jul 10, 2014, 7:48 AM
Post #2 of 29 (2889 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

Torch690 wrote:
Hello,

I am relatively new to the sport, and have about 70 jumps in 3 months. I have ordered a container, and am looking at a main parachute.

I have spotted a Sabre 2 190ft^2 which is from 2002. It is roughly $1250 with around 700 jumps on it and a new(er) lineset.

First (and main) question: has the Sabre 2 parachute changed in the last 12 years? I plan to have this parachute for at least this year and next year, before I downsize. While I would like to save the money, I am a little hesitant that the technology may have changed in the last decade, and considering that maybe I should spend a little more, and get a parachute that was manufactured within the last few years.

Secondly, according to the post, the brake line may be a little frayed from the alti strap. Is this normal? am I going to have to spend an additional $200 immedately to get new brake lines? (assuming fraying not too bad)

What should I keep in mind when looking at the possibility of purchasing this parachute?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

thanks very much!

-Dave

A LOT of people jump Sabre 1's. So no, it's not too old.

I jump a Sabre2 190 that's only a year or two newer with about 150 more jumps and it flies like a champ. I do think I have to pay a little more attention to how I pack it than a newer Sabre though. Just my impression from jumping three different Sabre2 canopies.


Torch690

Jul 10, 2014, 7:53 AM
Post #3 of 29 (2873 views)
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Re: [lyosha] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

[I do think I have to pay a little more attention to how I pack it than a newer Sabre though.]

when you say "pay more attention to how you pack it".. can you elaborate? What kind of attention and extra care do you give it? I have only packed my own chute about a dozen times, so any info would be very helpful.

Thanks!


skez

Jul 10, 2014, 8:53 AM
Post #4 of 29 (2777 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

2002..its not even run in yet lol my old sabre1 is so old can't even read how old it is the warning label writing has worn off....just get someone to check out the canopy/line condition to make sure its safe and all good


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jul 10, 2014, 9:20 AM
Post #5 of 29 (2735 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

You know you can get a completely brand new canopy for just $600 to 700 more? I think I got my new Storm 190 last month for just $1900 or so. It was a stock canopy from the end of 2013.

As for the line set, you could have them ship it to your rigger and have him inspect it for you. Thats fairly standard practice.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Jul 10, 2014, 9:41 AM
Post #6 of 29 (2709 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

you can probably find a newer canopy for that same price range.
I sold safire 2 2010, with 700 jumps and new lines for $1300 last year.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 10, 2014, 9:54 AM
Post #7 of 29 (2663 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't really go bad, unless they stored them improperly.

however brand new sabre 2 from 2002 were around 1500 bucks brand new.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 10, 2014, 12:15 PM
Post #8 of 29 (2551 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ask your local rigger to inspect it before any money changes hands.
Many riggers offer escrow services.


lyosha  (A License)

Jul 10, 2014, 12:26 PM
Post #9 of 29 (2533 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

Torch690 wrote:
[I do think I have to pay a little more attention to how I pack it than a newer Sabre though.]

when you say "pay more attention to how you pack it".. can you elaborate? What kind of attention and extra care do you give it? I have only packed my own chute about a dozen times, so any info would be very helpful.

Thanks!

I find that I get the best, most consistent openings when I

1. Fold the cells forward towards the tail of the canopy (hard to describe what I mean)
2. Push nose in
3. Pay extra attention to slider (make sure it is visible when you wrap the canopy in top skin so it catches the wind first)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 10, 2014, 5:18 PM
Post #10 of 29 (2322 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

No it's not old. Same design as new. Not going to comment on price but a new line set from PD is $300 plus by the time your done.
New lower brakes are line is $10-$30.

Have a rigger look at it. I recently rejected one for a client about that age due to excessive wear and some other issues.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 10, 2014, 5:43 PM
Post #11 of 29 (2308 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two things to keep in mind when looking at canopies.

1. Canopies don't "age" as much as they "wear". A canopy with very few jumps that has been siting in a climate controlled area (a closet in a home) for a long time will be the same as if it had only been stored for a short period of time. When pricing, consider total jumps and condition more than age.

2. In direct conflict with the above statement, canopy design does change over time. There's a reason there is a Sabre 2. Manufacturers are constantly tweaking design, so often newer canopy models have superior performance, smaller pack volume, and other attributes than older models.

That said, there's nothing wrong with a Sabre 1, but a Sabre 2 would be considered by most people as a better canopy.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jul 10, 2014, 7:27 PM
Post #12 of 29 (2219 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

I use to jump a sabre2 190 from 2012 with 60 jumps on it and now jump a sabre 170 from the 90's with an unknown number of jumps. Not much between them in my limited experience.

Sabre opens a bit more briskly but it's smooth and controlled (I do have a larger slider fitted). Can't comment too much on the flight characteristics as I don't really have the experience to explore the performance capabilities but the flight and flare feels similar to me.

I did get my rigger to check it out before I spent any money though.


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jul 10, 2014, 7:34 PM)


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jul 10, 2014, 7:36 PM
Post #13 of 29 (2203 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

stayhigh wrote:
They don't really go bad, unless they stored them improperly.

however brand new sabre 2 from 2002 were around 1500 bucks brand new.

this always puzzles me. Would you sell me your 1965 Mustang for $3500 that it cost in 1965 ???

How about the house you bought in 1980's for $120K that's now worth over $200K, should it be sold for $120K ?

in 2002 $1500 had buying power of today's $1983 USD
source : http://www.bls.gov/...ation_calculator.htm


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 10, 2014, 8:17 PM
Post #14 of 29 (2163 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I'm guilty of doing the same, but that's how the market goes so, when in rome.

however it boggles my mind when I see 90's Raven reserve selling for 500 bucks, when all of the raven should be burned and never repacked again.

I don't care how much you love your raven, the thing sucks ass compare to reserve that were made after 2000.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jul 10, 2014, 8:35 PM
Post #15 of 29 (2146 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

Playing devil's advocate.

Houses generally appreciate. Except after a bubble busts! LOL Laugh Some cars "if" they are considered collectable appreciate.

Couches? Blenders? Your old high school baseball mitt? Not so much.

Last I heard I dont think either of these situations (car/house) applied to skydiving equipment, no matter how much some sellers might wish it to be so. At the end of the day its just recreational sporting equipment, not a collectible piece of art.

I find it funny people always say a brand new car loses 50% of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. But in skydiving we think stuff is now worth more? Maybe they are charging for breaking it in? LOLWink


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jul 10, 2014, 8:50 PM
Post #16 of 29 (2134 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

stayhigh wrote:
I know I'm guilty of doing the same, but that's how the market goes so, when in rome.

however it boggles my mind when I see 90's Raven reserve selling for 500 bucks, when all of the raven should be burned and never repacked again.

I don't care how much you love your raven, the thing sucks ass compare to reserve that were made after 2000.

Are you talking about the MicroRavens (109-150) and the regular/Super RAVENS (181/218/249/282) ???

I highly disagree with you if you think that the SuperRaven series is crap, and would love to hear your opinion as to why.

Also you do know that the PD reserve, which most consider the gold standard, was developed in the late 80's and hasn't really changed since, right ?


theplummeter  (C License)

Jul 10, 2014, 9:19 PM
Post #17 of 29 (2125 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

likestojump wrote:
stayhigh wrote:
I know I'm guilty of doing the same, but that's how the market goes so, when in rome.

however it boggles my mind when I see 90's Raven reserve selling for 500 bucks, when all of the raven should be burned and never repacked again.

I don't care how much you love your raven, the thing sucks ass compare to reserve that were made after 2000.

Are you talking about the MicroRavens (109-150) and the regular/Super RAVENS (181/218/249/282) ???

I highly disagree with you if you think that the SuperRaven series is crap, and would love to hear your opinion as to why.

Also you do know that the PD reserve, which most consider the gold standard, was developed in the late 80's and hasn't really changed since, right ?

They must have fixed something around 2000-2001. I have ridden not one but two separate Micro Raven 150 canopies, both manufactured in late 2001. Loaded at 1.4:1 both of them opened on heading and flew fine resulting in stand up landings, the second time I had one was at 5000 feet in 90+ degree weather with calm winds.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 10, 2014, 9:23 PM
Post #18 of 29 (2116 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

I keep forgetting to put Micro infront of the title ravens.

I've seen three people who broke their back or ankle riding Micros.

I believe two of them were 109 and the other was 120.

I've heard mixed opinions about 150s


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jul 11, 2014, 7:54 AM
Post #19 of 29 (1865 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

stayhigh wrote:
I keep forgetting to put Micro infront of the title ravens.

I've seen three people who broke their back or ankle riding Micros.

I believe two of them were 109 and the other was 120.

I've heard mixed opinions about 150s

Thanks for the clarification.
I too have seen some carnage on small MicroRavens. HOWEVER they were overloaded way above manufacturer recommendations.

here's what Precision says for the max recommended loadings
(the non-M versions have much lower limits, -MZ versions have the same limits as -M's):
109 - 159lbs (I am GUESSING ~~ 110lbs limit for the non-M version)
120 - 168lbs (123lbs on the non-M version)
135 - 182lbs (135lbs on the non-M version)
150 - 193lbs (153lbs on the non-M version)

How many of people who blame the MicroRavens for bad landings have actually loaded it below the max recommended weight ? I bet not too many :(


wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 11, 2014, 8:29 AM
Post #20 of 29 (1833 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have three rides on my 150. Stood one up, deliberately. PLF'd the others. It's susceptible to stalling with a high aggressive flare; I'm sure that's worse if overloaded. I load it at less than 1.2, which is the appropriate range.

That said, it's outdated and I won't replace it with another MR. It's not worth what a comparably-sized modern design reserve is.

Wendy P.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jul 11, 2014, 9:00 AM
Post #21 of 29 (1804 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

123 lbs max placard was shocking to see.

when average gear weighs 20 lbs, meaning jumper has to weigh less than 100 lbs.

and there is a -M ??

-M came before R-max? I assume?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 11, 2014, 9:24 AM
Post #22 of 29 (1774 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

stayhigh wrote:
123 lbs max placard was shocking to see.

Although they are of course still certified to 254lbs I think, as was normal in those days.

They were just designed in an era where one didn't load F-111 canopies highly, and manufacturers were very conservative with their numbers. So for years Raven manuals (for main and reserve) had a wing loading diagram that basically showed .70 to .85 as the recommended wing loading, with above 1.02 "not approved".

Even a PD126 was listed as 151 lbs max back in the '90s, which is only a 1.2 loading, and plenty soon started breaking that limit. It just so happened that as jumpers grew more skilled on landing small canopies, the PD design was still up to the job.

Any rigger packing a PD vs a Raven will remark at how "short" a Raven is, how close together the A,B,C, and D line groups are. Without doing any calculations, it seems they were trimmed a lot flatter. Nice for floating along but too close to a stall when heavily loaded.

Hell, even Sabre main canopies listed a maximum weight equivalent to 1.1 loading. Like nobody has ever broken that!


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Jul 11, 2014, 9:54 AM
Post #23 of 29 (1733 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:
Any rigger packing a PD vs a Raven will remark at how "short" a Raven is, how close together the A,B,C, and D line groups are. Without doing any calculations, it seems they were trimmed a lot flatter. Nice for floating along but too close to a stall when heavily loaded.
Sorry to divert the conversation a bit, but looking at the trim charts, the Raven seems to be only an in or two shorter on the c and d lines. Surely there's something else going on here?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 11, 2014, 10:21 AM
Post #24 of 29 (1712 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno. Could take some more investigating. Something for another thread some day!


hypoxic_fool  (A 64188)

Jul 11, 2014, 10:31 AM
Post #25 of 29 (1695 views)
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Re: [Torch690] Sabre 2 190 from 2002 - too old? [In reply to] Can't Post

My first canopy was a 1991 sabre 170 that I got for a six pack of beer. Im now flying a 99 sabre 150. I love my sabre, once you tame the openings.


(This post was edited by hypoxic_fool on Jul 11, 2014, 10:37 AM)


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