Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Cypress Fired

 


aa1b

Oct 3, 2001, 12:49 PM
Post #1 of 21 (1628 views)
Shortcut
Cypress Fired Can't Post

As a newcomer to the sport, (skydive pilot for some time) I
was a bit spooked and maybe a little disappointed when a guy
with about twenty to twenty five jumps was still trying to get stable and went low (no pull). Thanks to Cypress this scout is still alive to talk about it.
I made my third jump right after this fiasco but I was a little pissed at this guy because it kind of broke my confidence.

My question for the experienced jumpers...does this happen very often? (Cypress firing)


"With the best equipment in the world the man with poor judgment is in mortal danger".
Royal Robbins



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2001, 1:54 PM
Post #2 of 21 (1618 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

It happens sometimes.... Just look at last years Nationals, the year of the "Raining Freebags", to see that just low number jumpers are not the only ones who go low. In the formation that had the multiple Cypres fires /reserve rides/low pulls there was an estimated 15000+ jumps experience.
There are a few times when a Cypres fire is more likly to happen then others.
1. On your first few solos when you might still easly lose altitude awareness and go low.
2. When you accumulate lots of jumps and just start to get careless and start lowering your break altitude to allow for more freefall time. When your break altitude is at 3500 and you turn finish the point after that your now down to 3000-2700 feet. Now you need to break apart and start tracking. Your now at about 2700 feet before you start moving. You track for 5 seconds to allow for proper speration. Thats 1700 feet you just went into. A quick wave off means 1500 feet. Your fine if you pull here and have no problems but.... with problems or hesitition on pull you are rapidly approaching the ~750 foot level of a Cypres.
3. When you just plain brain lock and go low

Number one can be avoided by paying attention to the Altimeter better and number two can be avoided by losing the skygod attitude and breaking at a higher altitude and losing a second or two of freefall in exchange for safty.

Number 3 is the harder one to avoid. If it was avoidable there would be no no-pull fatalites.

Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Smile


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Oct 3, 2001, 2:00 PM
Post #3 of 21 (1617 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

Or just don't use one...LOL

Seriously, they are a good thing. Altitude awareness is 90% of the skydive. You'll probably live through a host of other mistakes but that is the one that will get you in serious trouble in record time. Make it a habit to check often, use audibles, and stick to the plan in the air.

"The sky resembles a back lit canopy...with holes punched through it"- Incubus
Clay


jumpervali  (D 19338)

Oct 3, 2001, 2:18 PM
Post #4 of 21 (1612 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the time I've seen AADs fire are on experienced jumpers. They tend to be the ones busy having fun, and running out of time. There is no reason for a young jumper (or anyother) to not be deploying at proper altitude due to trying to fix poor body position. If he was worried about his body position at the proper pull time (thinking his canopy would be foul) then his reserve would have been a malfunction too. I take it that it wasn't? An AAD is a good item to have, but don't rely on it to save you.

pull
pull at proper altitude
pull at proper altitude, stable

Don't let it shake you up, just pull when its time, go have fun!

jumpervali



Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2001, 4:28 PM
Post #5 of 21 (1589 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

For the record, the incident you refer to happened before the actual beginning of the Nationals. It's not that they were trying to turn more points, they were -- geeking for the camera. (gimme a break!)

BTW, Arizona Airspeed normally breaks at 4,500. That should tell people something.

I tell 4-way teams that they only have -my- camera flying services until 4,000. After that they need to start tracking.


Paul

futurecam.com/skydive.html


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2001, 4:48 PM
Post #6 of 21 (1585 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep..... one of those in the base is a jumper at my DZ and lets just say that he now breaks at 3500 instead of 3000 like before....
Still too low in my opinion thats why on my jumps with him I left early at 4000 feet. I heard it on the ground but since I like to pull at 3000 to 2800 I felt i needed to leave early to stay in my comfort zone.

Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Smile


lazerq3  (C -34113)

Oct 3, 2001, 6:05 PM
Post #7 of 21 (1576 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

The SIMS specifically state: 3 way or smaller break off @3500
4 way or bigger breakoff @4000

So thats what I go by. However I have been in an 8 way where we were turning (attempting) a point at 4000ft. Very stupid move but I now can see how easy it is to lose alt awarness. Lesson learned!!!

jason



weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 3, 2001, 7:17 PM
Post #8 of 21 (1572 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

ummmm, Paul it happened AFTER 4 way was completed.



Premier phreezone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2001, 8:11 PM
Post #9 of 21 (1564 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

Weid14 is right. The team had completed the event and then this team member got in a big way. I guess they blamed the problem on on one in the base was using/looking at theit altimeters and just did'nt look down until it was too late. I'm not sure of that but I had heard the rumor at the time that all the members of the Big-way that went low (not all the people went low) were asked to leave nationals and were not permitted to do any more jumping. Does anyone know how much truth there is to this?

Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Smile


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Oct 3, 2001, 8:13 PM
Post #10 of 21 (1564 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

ummmmm.....Weid,

There -might- have been other Cypres fires than the one you remember happening. Both Paul and I were there when the aforesaid 4-way team had Cypres fires, indeed geeking the camera (before Nationals started). One member had a downplane into the soft dirt student circle and was very lucky to have lived!

Blues,
ltdiver

__________________________________________
http://www.discover.net/~ltdiver


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2001, 10:55 PM
Post #11 of 21 (1554 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry 'bout that. I remember the (pre-Nationals) 4-way team Cypres fire VIVIDLY since the gal that downplaned impacted the ground about 300 feet south of me in the landing area. That team also has the team trailer two north of mine and I watched/listened to them get grounded by the USPA Regional Director.

I guess I didn't realize you were talking about the other incident.

HOWEVER, that too did not technically happen during the Nationals competition. It was at the same DZ in the same time period, but not during competition.


Paul

futurecam.com/skydive.html


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 4, 2001, 8:24 AM
Post #12 of 21 (1513 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

Back to aa1b's original question.
Yes Cypres fires are fairly common.
Thank God Cypres fires are now common. Re-arming a Cypres is so much easier than attending a funeral.
Losing track of altitude is fairly common.
Heck, just yesterday, we had a junior jumper dump low because he was concentrating too much on his freefall exercises and did not look at his altitmeter until 2,000'!.
Until recently "no pull/low pull" represented 1/3 of the fatalities on USPA's annual fatality summary.
Now that Cypri are fashionable, I suspect that a lot of Cypres firings just go unreported.
Hm, it would be interesting to hear how many replacement cutters they sell every year. I guarrantee that number vastly exceeds the number of "Incident, Malfunction & Accident Reports" filed.

Another example: in the mid-1990s I was rigging for Square One when Kate Cooper hammeredd out a deal with Airtec to install Cypri in all of Square One's rental gear. In short order we had three Cypres firings!
We were all amazed that no one had died using Square One rental gear before that!



geoff

Oct 4, 2001, 1:48 PM
Post #13 of 21 (1489 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In short order we had three Cypres firings! We were all amazed that no one had died using Square One rental gear before that!
Are you trolling for someone to claim that Cypres's make jumpers more complacent? I happen to think that's true, but that that Cypres's are still a huge net benefit to skydivers.

Geoff



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 4, 2001, 3:14 PM
Post #14 of 21 (1481 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that what he was eluding to is that people were going way low before the Cypres were installed and once they were installed there was now a way to prove if you were going too low. A jumper can always deny that they went low."No way I pulled at 1000.... I pulled at least 1800 feet". but when the Cypres fires and its not a malfunctioning unit its hard to fight the evidence.......

Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Smile


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 4, 2001, 6:14 PM
Post #15 of 21 (1468 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

my bad I was referring to the big way multiple fire -- a lot of cutters that week eh?



weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 4, 2001, 6:17 PM
Post #16 of 21 (1467 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the folks that were on the jump -- there was a plan to geek the camera for those few and get some pics. guess they got more than they bargined for. According to the Daily Vibe (newsletter at nationals), they were grounded for the rest of the meet.



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Oct 4, 2001, 9:02 PM
Post #17 of 21 (1454 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hm, it would be interesting to hear how many replacement cutters they sell every year.
Prior to the field replacable cutters, they could keep close track of how many Cypres fires there were....but now don't they rely on riggers to report such things to them? I'm sure most don't, though....hell, I know of a rigger that had a Cypres fire, resulting in two out, not long ago at a boogie.. he landed way off field, took his rig straight to his motorhome, grabbed a new cutter, installed it, and repacked his reserve right there.. The only ones that knew about it were those of us that landed with him.....think that one was reported by the rigger? Smile

Mike



Premier skybytch  (D License)

Oct 5, 2001, 1:11 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1405 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
According to the Daily Vibe (newsletter at nationals)
Wow! You mean people actually read it?!? And saved copies?!?!? Cool...

(fyi....I did some of the scribbling for the Daily Vibe at both the '97 and 2000 Nationals....)
Smile

pull and flare!

"I feel so alive, for the very first time, and I think I can fly" - P.O.D.


FallinWoman  (C 32269)

Oct 6, 2001, 6:28 PM
Post #19 of 21 (1365 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

To answer the original question, I have only seen two firings in the 14 months that I have been going to the DZ every weekend. Both were students. One did about five things wrong, I cannot believe he lived to tell the story...
The other fought a spinning mal so long that his cypres fired at the same time he finally cut away. He was fine.

none of the experienced jumpers at my DZ have had a fire in the last 14 months, as far as I know! (and they jump with cypreses!)

Blue skies,
Anne



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 6, 2001, 7:35 PM
Post #20 of 21 (1359 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

In the last 18 months I've seen 2 Cypres fires, and showed up as 1 more that had fired touched down. The first one I saw from 4000 feet in the goup in front of me and the second one was from a mile away while I was on the ground. All 3 were from experienced jumpers. Major reason for the fires... lost altitude awareness. On the one fire I arrived on the scene of it should have been a double fire but the second jumper does'nt have a Cypres and pulled basicly only since they saw jumper 1's Cypres fire at around 1200-1500 feet. In a sit position the cypres fires little earlier due to the unexpected air pressure.
On my DZ's student gear it tends to be FXC 12000's and I've seen like 5 of those operate over the last 2 years. One of them turned on after the jumper had flown the canopy for 1000 feet and was entering the landing pattern at 2500 feet. I'm watching the canopies line up and i see something trailing behind the jumper. then it starts to fall further behind and the PC catchs air and pullls the freebag off. I'm just stairing in awe as all of a sudden the trailing reserve catchs air and inflates. A biplane developed in all of about 2 seconds. Scary things those 12000's.

Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Smile


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 7, 2001, 8:03 PM
Post #21 of 21 (1291 views)
Shortcut
Re: Cypress Fired [In reply to] Can't Post

oh yeah, everyone looked forward to that coming out -- was like the Forum, only your couldn't write back. We especially liked the gossip area. It was a fun little one pager.




Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)