Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth

 

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stemartin72

Apr 5, 2014, 9:23 PM
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Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth Can't Post

A big question is: To what extent do riders have control over the level of risks they take? Those who manage to make a living from their passion via sponsorship are certainly pushed to make highly spectacular videos that they sell. They would not step over the 'red line' if there was no money involved. I assume that making a living out of a passion is the ultimate goal for them, but also what bring them closer to accidents. When you watch the series 'The Perfect Flight', it is obvious that riders do not feel confortable in doing some of the rides, but hey, sponsors paid for the plane tickets and stays, and it has to be done.


base283  (D 15343)

Apr 6, 2014, 5:35 AM
Post #2 of 54 (10750 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

You should have seen the uncut version. The sponsors forced them out of the aircraft at gunpoint. That is probably why they were feeling uncomfortable. Or also it could have been that the riders felt uncomfortable because they knew inadvertently that you would be jealous.

Take care,
space


GoneCodFishing

Apr 6, 2014, 5:44 AM
Post #3 of 54 (10739 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, i see all the time proxy flyers rocking up to the Lauterbrunnen Waldorf Astoria in Ferraris loaded with cheerleaders and wearing massive goldchains, rolex and Armani suits before jumping into their diamond studded private helicopters to the sounds of Eye of the Tiger being played from the top of the range 100,000db support soundsystem manned by midgets in mankinis.

When you used to climb trees as a kid and get yourself into all sort of dodgy situations, were you doing it for money? When you started skydiving, did you do it for money? When you drive your Toyota Prius at 1mph over the limit, do you do it for money?

P.s. And this thread doesn't belong here. Get it moved somewhere else.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 6, 2014, 5:46 AM
Post #4 of 54 (10726 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Apr 6, 2014, 5:48 AM
Post #5 of 54 (10716 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 6, 2014, 6:53 AM
Post #6 of 54 (10457 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.

If YOU go read the other post... the title was changed to "Double Fatality" by the 10th post. Anyway, IMO this whole thread should be deleted by a mod.


stemartin72

Apr 6, 2014, 6:59 AM
Post #7 of 54 (10429 views)
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Re: [GoneCodFishing] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

You two guys are a bunch of irresponsible and impulsive fellas who act like a 6 year old kid and cannot acknowledge that money and sponsorship can actually influence the decisions made (which is obvious in most human activities).


(This post was edited by stemartin72 on Apr 6, 2014, 10:21 AM)


christelsabine  (D 10828)

Apr 6, 2014, 7:17 AM
Post #8 of 54 (10358 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

have a look here:

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/...p;fm=newsmain%2Cnrhl


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Apr 6, 2014, 8:09 AM
Post #9 of 54 (10182 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.

If YOU go read the other post... the title was changed to "Double Fatality" by the 10th post. Anyway, IMO this whole thread should be deleted by a mod.

You are an idiot. You should read the whole post. You know where it says that they pulled Brian off life support.


lawrocket  (Student)

Apr 6, 2014, 8:32 AM
Post #10 of 54 (10105 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

Risk control and risk management means cognizance of the risks being taken. The fewer jumps a person had, the less a person really knows the risks. The fewer funerals, hospital visits, etc., the less a person can manage risks. Because as in-you-face apparent as the risks are, the numerous subtle daisy chain methods of becoming cherry jello are not understood.

Sure. It's risking death. The sport is aboiut managing the ways in which that cann happen. I fully agree, though, that the "hey, guys - watch this" adds to the level of acceptable risk. And leads to some pretty dumb-ass things.

I have kids. I haven't jumped in a decade because unconscious incompetence in something so unforgiving as playing chicken with the planet is something that I can't accept until the kids are older. The risks I have experienced are scary enough. The ones I cannot yet even fully comprehend because I don't even know what I don't know scare me too much. I have too much to lose.

And what we have to lose falls into that awareness of the risk. High risk is a game for the young, unattached and compensated.


craddock  (D 22750)

Apr 6, 2014, 8:51 AM
Post #11 of 54 (10041 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

You jumpers do realize that the OP is most likely friend or family of one of the deceased looking for someone to blame while mourning? Having registered only to start this thread? Just something to be aware of with your responses.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 6, 2014, 8:52 AM
Post #12 of 54 (10039 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

stemartin72 wrote:
I just wanted to make sure that you could be a bunch of irresponsible and impulsive guys who act like a 6 year old kid and cannot acknowledge that money and sponsorship issues can actually have an influence on the decisions made (which is obvious in most human activities). Now I have to face the truth (better than you will ever do). Yes, you are that kind of people. Take care.

Interesting first two posts on the site, what's the rest of the story?

There was a somewhat interesting article in "Outside" magazine a couple years back touching that very subject...

Does sponsorship cause one to push their limits?

According to the article which had a few interviews with BASE jumpers...it does.

By limits...it doesn't always mean 'bigger & badder' stunts, sometimes it can mean doing the same one over & over to get the right shot. Fatigue causes failure too.

That said...the sponsored person is the one who decides what price they put on their own life.

Always in all ways KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Apr 6, 2014, 8:55 AM)


stemartin72

Apr 6, 2014, 9:31 AM
Post #13 of 54 (9902 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

Hardcore proxy brings many more 'views' on You Tube than basic tandem skydiving with the 60 years old lady having her lifetime experience. Same for Parkour, building climbing (Alain Robert)... The quest for the more spectacular ride, the most perfect pictures has a price. Wingsuit ride has a short history with limited sponsorship resources and a number of other extreme sports competing for them. To get your share (and finance your equipment and R&D), you sometimes have to push the limits.


(This post was edited by stemartin72 on Apr 6, 2014, 10:23 AM)


lawrocket  (Student)

Apr 6, 2014, 9:48 AM
Post #14 of 54 (9830 views)
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Re: [craddock] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

craddock wrote:
You jumpers do realize that the OP is most likely friend or family of one of the deceased looking for someone to blame while mourning? Having registered only to start this thread? Just something to be aware of with your responses.

This may be possible and if so, it's a normal response.


craddock  (D 22750)

Apr 6, 2014, 9:56 AM
Post #15 of 54 (9812 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

 
That said I think it is safe to say this. This is very touchy subject and SOME Base jumpers feel they are so unique and elite that skydivers and occasional BASE jumpers are complete Wuffos and are in the dark so they should not be discussing as their is nothing to learn for them. Even among experienced BASE jumpers there can be dissent when it comes to proper risk management when Families and young children are affected.

I only want to add this. Having had people follow in my tracks and stunts I pulled for my own Adrenalin fix, I view risk management a little different. Jumpers talk about their family accepting this risks but what they seldom talk about is if the families and children of others that follow in their footsteps accept this shit. I personally have had serious issues with some stuff that their is No doubt I led people into. Whether I was with them at the time or I just set the example, or in some case literately laid tracks(I use the term laying tracks loosely). I don't really want to get in a pissing match about it just as to point it out because I constantly hear people saying they are willing to accept the risks and consider there OWN family in this risk.
Of course this will always happen in anything and we can not just stop living life. But we CAN put the fucking Cameras away and not feel the need to share them with the entire world to feed our own egos. But you don't get sponsors that way and that does play a part, however small or big in some of these incidents. I touched on this first in the original thread. One post got lost.

We can disagree on many things but I can not see how we can disagree on this....Cameras are killing people. What young cocky confident Adrenalin Junky doesn't want better POV footage when his buddy is showing off a much bigger badder sicker line to everyone. (Over generalizing). And I am talking well outside of this particular incident as this was not a case of Jeb hitting balloons flying low proximity
I am not even sure where/how I stand because I am mixing my own personal demons into my thoughts. But I do think this is a hell of a lot better place for the discussion then in the incident forum.


(This post was edited by craddock on Apr 6, 2014, 10:25 AM)


Krip  (Student)

Apr 6, 2014, 11:06 AM
Post #16 of 54 (9573 views)
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Re: [craddock] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

+1


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Apr 6, 2014, 11:16 AM
Post #17 of 54 (9519 views)
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Re: [craddock] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

+2 well said. Thank you for your thoughts.


grue  (D License)

Apr 6, 2014, 11:22 AM
Post #18 of 54 (9494 views)
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

stemartin72 wrote:
Wingsuit ride has a short history with limited sponsorship resources and a number of other extreme sports competing for them. To get your share (and finance your equipment and R&D), you sometimes have to push the limits.

and in the end, the only person making that choice is the jumper. These three guys made the choice to exit and fly that line, and they paid for that choice with their lives. It sucks, but there's no point in foisting blame on anyone else.

As for sponsors? Well, plenty of people have normal jobs and jump when they can on their budget. These guys had that option, too.


(This post was edited by grue on Apr 6, 2014, 11:24 AM)


stemartin72

Apr 6, 2014, 11:30 AM
Post #19 of 54 (9452 views)
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Re: [craddock] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. Cameras kill people. Also when the camera on the safety helmet becomes entangled in the parachute when deploying (R.I.P. Kylie Tanti).
This being said, as viewers we also bear some responsibility. By making Redbull's "We are amazing" shit popular, we encourage unexperienced jumpers to do crazy stunts.
The issue with wingsuit base jump is this sport is still at the early age of exploration (with relatively low experience built up so far, no clear cut rules, etc.) + You Tube and Go Pro arrived way too early.


(This post was edited by stemartin72 on Apr 6, 2014, 12:38 PM)


RobertMBlevins

Apr 6, 2014, 11:53 AM
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Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

From the article:

Quote:
'Around 20 people die every year while attempting to take part in the extreme sport in which participants wear a specialist suit which allows them to glide like a flying squirrel. Last August, wingsuit diver Mark Sutton, who parachuted into the London 2012 Olympics dressed as James Bond, died from crashing into a mountain ridge in the Swiss Alps after jumping from a helicopter....'

I am a whuffo for sure, but something comes to mind here. If 20 people a year are being killed in this sport, that seems excessive. Maybe this sport needs better training and more regulation?


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Apr 6, 2014, 11:54 AM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Apr 6, 2014, 12:11 PM
Post #21 of 54 (9290 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

BASE is self regulated - meaning no regulation really. When it comes right down to it, anyone can get hold of a BASE rig and go jump off a bridge with no training (not that that really happens that I am aware of - even death camps have mentors).
Skydiving involves aircraft, and pilots who are potentially at risk of losing their license if certain procedures are not followed, as well as being mildly regulated by the FAA and has a requlatory organization in the USPA - meaning there are a lot more people who have a vested interest in skydivers being properly trained and knowing the rules.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 6, 2014, 12:12 PM
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Re: [dqpacker] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.

If YOU go read the other post... the title was changed to "Double Fatality" by the 10th post. Anyway, IMO this whole thread should be deleted by a mod.

You are an idiot. You should read the whole post. You know where it says that they pulled Brian off life support.


It would appear to be the case that it was originally entitled "Double Fatality" and when Brian passed: one of the moderators changed it to Triple. Simple out of sequence, different threads, postings and not being on here for a few days. Let's refrain from the personal attacks.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Apr 6, 2014, 12:15 PM
Post #23 of 54 (9266 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.

If YOU go read the other post... the title was changed to "Double Fatality" by the 10th post. Anyway, IMO this whole thread should be deleted by a mod.

You are an idiot. You should read the whole post. You know where it says that they pulled Brian off life support.


It would appear to be the case that it was originally entitled "Double Fatality" and when Brian passed: one of the moderators changed it to Triple. Simple out of sequence, different threads, postings and not being on here for a few days. Let's refrain from the personal attacks.

Let's read all the info before making post that make us look like idiots.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 6, 2014, 12:22 PM
Post #24 of 54 (9229 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
dqpacker wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.

If YOU go read the other post... the title was changed to "Double Fatality" by the 10th post. Anyway, IMO this whole thread should be deleted by a mod.

You are an idiot. You should read the whole post. You know where it says that they pulled Brian off life support.


It would appear to be the case that it was originally entitled "Double Fatality" and when Brian passed: one of the moderators changed it to Triple. Simple out of sequence, different threads, postings and not being on here for a few days. Let's refrain from the personal attacks.

Let's read all the info before making post that make us look like idiots.

Enough.


stemartin72

Apr 6, 2014, 12:22 PM
Post #25 of 54 (9227 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth [In reply to] Can't Post

Read this: 'The fatality rate for skydiving is around 1 death per 100,000 jumps' 'For BASE jumping it is closer to a roughly estimated 1 death per 500-1000 jumps so is, roughly, more than a hundred times more fatally prone to risk than skydiving.'. Yes. There is definitely a need for regulation.

Now, about how a sponsor like RB encourages some people to take unnecessary risks:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/red-bull-stunt-marketing-extreme-sports-death-464619
And Victor Kovats was probably #8.


(This post was edited by stemartin72 on Apr 6, 2014, 12:35 PM)


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