Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality Eloy 1-25-14

 

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ianyapxw

Feb 10, 2014, 11:59 PM
Post #51 of 99 (5212 views)
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Re: [Trae] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Trae wrote:
Gotta wonder if the parachutes of today really have been improved? They might be faster, turn quicker dive more extremely etc but better?
they've become better for some things but a way lot worse for others.

You're missing the point here, confusing safety with capability. Obviously a 1000cc bike is 'better' than a human-powered bicycle, but it's more dangerous. Not to mention the many different kind of parachutes for disciplines...

Quote:

maybe its time to detune the ordinary skydiving sport canopy and accept something with less outright performance in the interests of everyones safety margins.

While you are entitled to your opinion, that decision has to be made by regulatory authorities, government authorities and individuals. Everyone has a right to decide their own risk, otherwise we risk turning the world to a nanny state.

Quote:
if you just have to fly a way too small canopy then you could do it amoungst like minded people instead of this continued carving through the turkey BS. might take some grown ups to sort out properly.

That's not a decision for you to make, it's a decision for the DZO and authorities to make. You can't impose your opinion on others, though feel free to suggest to regulatory authorities. As long as someone is following the appropriate rules (both regulatory and social norms), they can feel free to do what they want to do.

I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying your slant is well too controlling for my taste.


(This post was edited by ianyapxw on Feb 11, 2014, 12:08 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 11, 2014, 2:26 PM
Post #52 of 99 (4794 views)
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Re: [ianyapxw] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

No offense, but since (so far) you haven't started skydiving yet, and apparently aren't otherwise immersed in the skydiving industry or environment (aside from tunnel time), the best you can think about this is strictly in the abstract. This is a good time for you to sit back and listen to experienced skydivers debate about it.


mattjw916  (D License)

Feb 11, 2014, 3:42 PM
Post #53 of 99 (4714 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not really apparent how canopy size is even relevant here... both jumpers were under canopies appropriate to their skill level and perhaps even on the conservative side.

This wasn't some "swooper" slashing through the pattern going for beer-line glory.


ianyapxw

Feb 11, 2014, 4:32 PM
Post #54 of 99 (4663 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the civil reply and no offense taken Smile

I tried to be polite and hope I didn't come across as rude.

I wasn't trying to debate an issue. I just felt that OP should have used phrases like "I feel that" instead of "maybe it's time" and "interest of everyone's safety margins", because he seems to be implying that he should dictate how say T J Landgren should fly.

Well that's just the vibe I got Unsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 11, 2014, 6:39 PM
Post #55 of 99 (4597 views)
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Re: [ianyapxw] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

ianyapxw wrote:
Thanks for the civil reply and no offense taken Smile

I tried to be polite and hope I didn't come across as rude.

I wasn't trying to debate an issue. I just felt that OP should have used phrases like "I feel that" instead of "maybe it's time" and "interest of everyone's safety margins", because he seems to be implying that he should dictate how say T J Landgren should fly.

Well that's just the vibe I got Unsure
Don't worry about 'the vibe' - it's the incidents thread & the grammar police usually have the sense to stifle concerns regarding a comments 'vibe'.
* I don't try to be polite, I'm a grumpy old fart and it always sounds fake.


~ That said


No way the sport ever puts the high performance canopies on the back shelf, that Genie is out of the bottle & only getting bigger.

IMO - that's becoming the central focus of late, how soon can I downsize & how much.

Unfortunately the answer to both is extremely subjective, and even more unfortunate - the consequences are pretty severe for wrong answers.

As outlined by several people above - there ARE several ways to get the pattern safer & still utilize a higher performance wing the way & for what it's designed.

There's always going to be differing opinions relating to the 'details' as far as - who does what, when, where & how...those can be hammered out pretty quick, once we ALL come eye to eye that the overall 'culture of safety' has to be the highest priority.

By that I mean each of us needs to be aware of what we can do at every given stage of a dive - to give the other guy a safe & rewarding jump. If there's any remote chance your actions could impact another's safety - you by habit, make an adjustment to that action.

That's a fairly major change in the cultural behavior patterns currently the norm...but hey kids, it's gotta happen sooner or later. The numbers should give anyone with a survival instinct cause for some concern.

I've been around for a bit & I've seen the 'culture' make such changes several times over the years. Vigilant concern coupled with peer pressure from a sizable majority is what's worked in the past...1st we all just need to agree there IS a problem.


monkycndo  (D License)

Feb 11, 2014, 6:51 PM
Post #56 of 99 (4582 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
...1st we all just need to agree there IS a problem.

And then only 11 more steps to go.Unsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 11, 2014, 7:34 PM
Post #57 of 99 (4546 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

monkycndo wrote:
airtwardo wrote:
...1st we all just need to agree there IS a problem.

And then only 11 more steps to go.Unsure

Once the ball gets rolling...momentum takes over! Wink

What amazes me is how 'we' don't put the same value on each other that we do on 'citizens' that stick a toe in for a second or two.
.

Drop a couple people out of a passenger harness & the 'industry' moves heaven & earth in a heartbeat to address the situation and implement corrective measures...

But a decade of 50% fatality figures resulting from open & working canopy mishaps & we get an editorial in the home office magazine.

'We' can do better, I've seen it happen!

Plastic ripcords & blast handles went away in a season or less...intentional low pulls took a few years, but they're history for the most part.

The 'party' doesn't start until the last rig is open these days.

I kinda understand the reluctance to go on record and set limits - nobody in this 'likes' making, enforcing or following rules..but not doing so just might be hurting 'this thing of ours' a lot more than it is helping.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Feb 11, 2014, 10:37 PM
Post #58 of 99 (4486 views)
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Re: Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Attempts at discussing the near miss were fruitless.

I'd also add that it's not only the actions themselves - but the attitude 'allowing for them' that might addressed as well.

There seems to be a growing acceptance of this type of behavior and attitude. It has been allowed to continue and grow to the point where many think it is their right.

Quote:
You're missing the point here, confusing safety with capability…………..Everyone has a right to decide their own risk,

I think you are missing the point or maybe it’s that you don’t understand it completely. You can have capability without being safe but to be safe you need capability. The two are not mutually exclusive.
You are right, everyone can decide their own risk level. Right up to the point that their decision affects the risk level and safety of others.

As was mentioned before, good chance for you to listen and maybe learn.

Sparky


potatoman  (Student)

Feb 17, 2014, 12:27 AM
Post #59 of 99 (4113 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed, seen most of those phases come and go.

Are there any rules regarding downsizing, in other countries? My country have a 100jump max loaded at 1. Thereafter.....well, up to you.

And the incidents generally occur anything from 200 jumps - 5000jumps logged.

Back in the day I jumped a 150Full eliptical at 35jumps, loaded at about 1.3. That was stupid, but luckily I survived it.


bakerjan

Feb 17, 2014, 8:18 AM
Post #60 of 99 (3944 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

mjosparky wrote:
Quote:
Attempts at discussing the near miss were fruitless.

I'd also add that it's not only the actions themselves - but the attitude 'allowing for them' that might addressed as well.

There seems to be a growing acceptance of this type of behavior and attitude. It has been allowed to continue and grow to the point where many think it is their right.

Quote:
You're missing the point here, confusing safety with capability…………..Everyone has a right to decide their own risk,

I think you are missing the point or maybe it’s that you don’t understand it completely. You can have capability without being safe but to be safe you need capability. The two are not mutually exclusive.
You are right, everyone can decide their own risk level. Right up to the point that their decision affects the risk level and safety of others.

As was mentioned before, good chance for you to listen and maybe learn.

Sparky

The skydiving industry should try to learn from the ski industry, many places on mountains where you can go fast and crazy, but when you get near the bottom of fun mountain where everyone comes together you gotta slow down and the hotshot skiers are legally responsible for avoiding the newbies and flailers.

Collisions kill and injure people skiing too but the percentage per participator is much lower, separate landing areas can help, don't know the answer but maybe skiing can give us some ideas.

Jan


Trae  (Student)

Feb 17, 2014, 5:21 PM
Post #61 of 99 (3734 views)
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Re: [ianyapxw] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

i reply to "You're missing the point here, confusing safety with capability. Obviously a 1000cc bike is 'better' than a human-powered bicycle, but it's more dangerous. Not to mention the many different kind of parachutes for disciplines... "
....................................

perhaps , it seems to me that the skills of people in general are not up to the standard required for the gear which just looks too hot for them.

Thanks for reminding me i'm entitled to an opinion.

in reply to "That's not a decision for you to make, it's a decision for the DZO and authorities to make."

Mmmm .....the safety officers of the late 1990's and 2000's have been asleep at the wheel. but that was they're right i suppose. You mite have noticed that my slant was suggestive . eg use of if , maybe, might. I think I'm hitting the nail on the head but that's just my opinion :)


ianyapxw

Feb 17, 2014, 7:54 PM
Post #62 of 99 (3669 views)
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Re: [Trae] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

I wasn't trying to be hostile and it's good you didn't take it that way.

Blue skies!


Trae  (Student)

Feb 19, 2014, 5:01 PM
Post #63 of 99 (3308 views)
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Re: [ianyapxw] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool mate ..one of the big answers to our shared problem is guys like us getting on and solving this issue, through guidance not control. Micro managing this problem at the coal face is what the ASO's haven't been doing.
have fun out there ! Cool


Cutaway68  (D 29478)

Feb 19, 2014, 8:09 PM
Post #64 of 99 (3218 views)
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Re: [Trae] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time.


danornan  (D 11308)

Feb 20, 2014, 4:22 AM
Post #65 of 99 (3075 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Cutaway68 wrote:
How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time.

By having a plan that everyone follows, newbee and sky-god... A predictable pattern and limited turns below 1,000 feet go a long way in the right direction. Oh, and the plan must be enforced!


(This post was edited by danornan on Feb 20, 2014, 4:22 AM)


ianyapxw

Feb 20, 2014, 4:50 AM
Post #66 of 99 (3047 views)
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Re: [Trae] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Sad to say, from my personal experience in the military, it's very difficult to guide adults. If you constantly remind them, or make them go through incident reports, they just become complacent because they assume you're being overly safe. If you make harsh rules for downsizing, people become overconfident once they downsize.

edit: Since you called me 'mate' would you happen to be in Aus? If so, where are you jumping? I should be starting AFF in Aus soon.


(This post was edited by ianyapxw on Feb 20, 2014, 4:51 AM)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 20, 2014, 6:10 AM
Post #67 of 99 (2993 views)
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Re: [danornan] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
Cutaway68 wrote:
How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time.

By having a plan that everyone follows, newbee and sky-god... A predictable pattern and limited turns below 1,000 feet go a long way in the right direction. Oh, and the plan must be enforced!

Good idea, except it doesn't apply to this incident. The collision occurred at 1200-1500 feet at a dz known for its attention to safety issues.

Mark


Premier Remster  (C License)

Feb 20, 2014, 7:15 AM
Post #68 of 99 (2949 views)
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Re: [mark] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

mark wrote:
danornan wrote:
Cutaway68 wrote:
How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time.

By having a plan that everyone follows, newbee and sky-god... A predictable pattern and limited turns below 1,000 feet go a long way in the right direction. Oh, and the plan must be enforced!

Good idea, except it doesn't apply to this incident. The collision occurred at 1200-1500 feet at a dz known for its attention to safety issues.

Mark

Limiting the turns and having a predictable pattern starts on opening, not at 1,000 feet.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Feb 20, 2014, 12:47 PM
Post #69 of 99 (2774 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Cutaway68 wrote:
How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time.

Of course they are, but as others have stated, you set up rules of the game, and enforce them, whether or not something bad happens.

It's why a police officer will ticket you for running a stop sign, even if you didn't hit anyone in the intersection, and even if you just made a mistake and missed the sign.

You don't just throw up your hands and decide that because people will make mistakes and/or sometimes just not follow the rules that you don't bother establishing any.


Trae  (Student)

Feb 20, 2014, 8:38 PM
Post #70 of 99 (2588 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time. "
.................................................

Yep probably no true fix as such. more like harm minimisation.

The best I've seen at harm minimisation in the skydiving community, was a bunch of serving airborne soldiers who kinda prowled on the DZ and acted like pointer dogs to a group of well chosen SO's with grounding powers they didn't hesitate to use.
might sound ott but they nipped little problems in the bud.... And lifted everyones game.
The focus became 'Get it Right!'
This followed a spate of fatalities at that DZ. After their incursion and guidance that DZ didn't have a serious incident for over a decade.
If some-one did a pointlessly radical landing, or endangered others they were quickly sidelined until they showed they understood THEY were the problem.
Backing this up was a good solid chain of command on the DZ. no boozy push-overs. There was also a definite skill and experience hierarchy helping keep people's abilities in line with their ambitions. These were true sports people Many had lost good friends and could see something had to be done.

So ...didn't fix human error, we all made heaps of mistakes, but human error was allowed for by forgiving equipment so a bruise may have resulted, not a broken femur or worse. Also the guides, while a bit ruthless were not completely limiting, you just had to show them you weren't a danger to yourself or others. then we were let loose to do amazing things.


How to translate an old solution to a new problem?
If you want to be a skydiver your whole life ...whats the hurry ? The slow steady steps along the way are what makes it fun and more predictable meaning more safe, meaning better chance of doing it all your long happy life.. Go too fast , jump steps ....ouch!
Its the too fast ones don't make it , the steady steady are world champs.

We have so many vastly experienced skydivers amoungst us and so much skill and beauty in our sport .
What we just mite need now is the smarts to truly look out for each other and listen when someone says " just try slowing down just a bit, just for a while," and see what opens up in the world .
It just mite give us time to care a bit more in the air and on the ground...and of course we can always speed up later

Condolences to the family of the deceased..Angelic


DrDom  (Student)

Feb 23, 2014, 8:36 AM
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Re: [Remster] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Remster wrote:
mark wrote:
danornan wrote:
Cutaway68 wrote:
How do you fix the human error factor? Anyone is capable of making a mistake at any given time.

By having a plan that everyone follows, newbee and sky-god... A predictable pattern and limited turns below 1,000 feet go a long way in the right direction. Oh, and the plan must be enforced!

Good idea, except it doesn't apply to this incident. The collision occurred at 1200-1500 feet at a dz known for its attention to safety issues.

Mark

Limiting the turns and having a predictable pattern starts on opening, not at 1,000 feet.

Works for the other friends of the sky: aircraft

We can learn a lot from the safety of airplanes... though exiting them is more fun.


DrDom  (Student)

Feb 24, 2014, 6:46 AM
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Re: [DrDom] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

I Re-Read this article and have to say its been enlightening. I was thinking back to my FIRST time alone under canopy and my military "head on a swivel" kicked in... and yet there was probably a minimum of 120 or so degrees behind me that was TOTALLY blind. Just like in some aircraft. SO, I did what we do in my piper cub... you make a gentle 90 degree turn into airspace you can see to "clear" the air behind you before maneuvers. But reading this incident reminded me of how scary it is in the sky as a parachutist. In a plane you're big, easy to spot, and often very alone until near an airport. With us we occupy a relatively small area of sky and can only control sink rate and turn and to some extent groundspeed.

If you don't fly a predictable pattern then you do put yourself and others at risk. If you're alone in the sky its a different story. My last 2 jumps were C182 with just myself and my instructor and I knew I'd be the highest canopy in the sky barring a mal, and I was told "go ahead and play a bit, get used to the canopy, because you'll be pretty alone up there". Even then I found myself nervous thinking there are at least one aircraft (our C182) up here and I best pay attention. I was told when the skies are busy to always minimize as much as possible to get home.

Why can we not 100% prevent this? Malfunctions happen, people get disoriented, cutaways, etc. There are incidents that can not be stopped, but what we are trying to discuss is mitigation of risk, not elimination (which is impossible).

I'm new to diving but not aviation, and I have to say that we have all the risk of a small plane with less than 1/2 of the control.

As an aside, this reminds me of why I get so annoyed with non-jumpers. I always get the "aren't you worried about your parachute not opening?" and I always say "Thats actually the least of my worries..." Nobody gets it. But all these deaths under a good canopy are sad.

One more thing and I'll go away... One reason I stopped riding motorcycles was the reality that although I was a great rider (even on a stupid-fast 1000cc superbike) there are a lot of idiots on the road who can get me killed. We need to realize that the sky is very similar and probably more unforgiving. We need to be safe under canopy not only for ourselves (we all have strong self-preservation reflexes) but also because our decisions could get someone else killed. I'm not sure what is worse: dead, or severely injured but alive knowing I killed a friend in the sky.


(This post was edited by DrDom on Feb 24, 2014, 6:49 AM)


Trae  (Student)

Feb 24, 2014, 5:21 PM
Post #73 of 99 (1447 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "Of course they are, but as others have stated, you set up rules of the game, and enforce them, whether or not something bad happens."
...................................

Good harm minimisation can catch things before they happen.
Enforcing rules can be a positive way to hold back the incessant pressure of anarchism in our impatient ranks.
Of course careless, reckless always in a hurry souls don't like this as it restricts their rights to mess with the rest of us .

I believe the whole speed up happened with the introduction of AFF. not all bad but way too accelerated for some...and many steady learning steps were just totally discarded.

So the freefall side of basic training is accelerated but the canopy side basically retarded.

Time for ACC ? .....Accelerated Canopy Course.

(My recomendation would be to spend just as much time and jumps on basic canopy training as basic freefall training.)


GAjumper84  (A License)

Feb 24, 2014, 9:22 PM
Post #74 of 99 (1348 views)
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Re: [Trae] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I believe the whole speed up happened with the introduction of AFF. not all bad but way too accelerated for some...and many steady learning steps were just totally discarded.

So the freefall side of basic training is accelerated but the canopy side basically retarded.

Time for ACC ? .....Accelerated Canopy Course.

(My recomendation would be to spend just as much time and jumps on basic canopy training as basic freefall training.)

That is why my DZO and instructors really like doing IAD now. I went through it, and with 14 jumps instead of 7 just to get to solo/coach jumps you get twice the canopy time. Also you start out with basically no freefall so it is all about canopy skills. Couple that with the fact there is more jumps to focus on individual skills. The instructors, S&TA, and DZO all say the students graduating IAD have a much better skill set going on to their solo jumps than AFF. Maybe it is time to promote courses like IAD instead of pushing mainly or in a lot of cases only AFF?

Just the thoughts of a newbie, what do you more experienced skydivers/instructors think?


Polorutz  (A 69149)

Feb 25, 2014, 4:01 AM
Post #75 of 99 (1247 views)
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Re: [GAjumper84] Fatality Eloy 1-25-14 [In reply to] Can't Post

I am an inexperienced jumper so take my questions as genuine curiosity and not trolling.

If the name of the game is to lose altitude fast to get down to pattern height to land. Would using a straight line double front riser descent be frowned upon?

Once I clear my airspace in front, to the sides and below, I tend to go to half brakes for a few seconds and then use double fronts in a straight line to bleed altitude, then I let the canopy slow down, turn slowly if I need to and then reuse the fronts after reclearing the airspace. Always in a straight line.

Is this bad form?


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