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340 - 402...why jump what?

 

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potatoman  (Student)

Dec 12, 2013, 1:25 AM
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340 - 402...why jump what? Can't Post

I am not a TI, nor want to be one, but I like to know stuff.

What are the pros and cons about jumping the 340, 370 and 402 ish size canopies, and what is the more preferred in the industry?


nigel99  (D 1)

Dec 12, 2013, 3:09 AM
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a TI, but from lengthy discussions size didn't matter so much as toggle configurations.

At our dz we have a mix of single and dual toggle systems, and as explained to me there are numerous different configurations of which brake lines are connected - all with different trade-offs.


potatoman  (Student)

Dec 12, 2013, 4:41 AM
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Re: [nigel99] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

That poses the next question then. Why would you want to have a dual toggle system? I have seen them, was red for the "main" toggle, and yellow for the smaller toggle. Also an extra loop to "lock" the toggle in place when stowing... Still don't know why the extra loop.


Irm1u  (B License)

Dec 12, 2013, 5:37 AM
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone probably has a better answer than me on this, but the main idea is that the two sets of toggles are connected to different lines, so one set is better for turning etc, while the other is better for flaring/landing.


mx19  (D License)

Dec 12, 2013, 6:43 AM
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dual toggle system is mainly for TI comfort, the toggles on a tandem rig are a lot heavier than on a sport canopy... Using just the steering toggles takes a lot less effort and can save some fatigue when doing lots of jumps in a day, then use both when you really need the power, on landing.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 12, 2013, 6:49 AM
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why would you want to have a dual toggle system?

There are steering toggles and flare toggles. The steering toggles are connected to less of the tail than a conventional, single toggle would be, so when steering the canopy at altitude, you're pulling on less of the tail with less effort required. For landing, you pick up the flare toggles as well, and then you're applying full tail deflection for maximum flare power.

As mentioned, it's for TI comfort/fatigue. Tandems are hard physical work, and when you do them all day long, fatigue becomes an issue. Being able to get a good, full flare is key to passenger safety, and the dual toggle system helps out in that area.


DougH  (D License)

Dec 12, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #7 of 27 (3625 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
As mentioned, it's for TI comfort/fatigue. Tandems are hard physical work, and when you do them all day long, fatigue becomes an issue. Being able to get a good, full flare is key to passenger safety, and the dual toggle system helps out in that area.

So does going to the gym, and having your student fly most of the canopy ride. Sly


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Dec 12, 2013, 3:40 PM
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Re: [DougH] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

DougH wrote:
davelepka wrote:
As mentioned, it's for TI comfort/fatigue. Tandems are hard physical work, and when you do them all day long, fatigue becomes an issue. Being able to get a good, full flare is key to passenger safety, and the dual toggle system helps out in that area.

So does going to the gym, and having your student fly most of the canopy ride. Sly
+1


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 12, 2013, 3:48 PM
Post #9 of 27 (3484 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
Quote:
Why would you want to have a dual toggle system?

There are steering toggles and flare toggles. The steering toggles are connected to less of the tail than a conventional, single toggle would be, so when steering the canopy at altitude, you're pulling on less of the tail with less effort required. For landing, you pick up the flare toggles as well, and then you're applying full tail deflection for maximum flare power.

As mentioned, it's for TI comfort/fatigue. Tandems are hard physical work, and when you do them all day long, fatigue becomes an issue. Being able to get a good, full flare is key to passenger safety, and the dual toggle system helps out in that area.

.........................................................................

The other side of the debate is that some TIs cannot count all those toggles ... at the end of a busy day.
Back when Strong 520 canopies were fashionable, we used to tie all the steering and brake lines to just two toggles and flew them just fine.
It also helped that most of our TIs attended the gym on a regular basis.

Even today, I find that four toggles - on a Icarus 366 - are more than I want to bother with in a busy landing pattern. I would much rather have my "eyes outside the cockpit" when other TIS have "more than one definition" of a right-hand landing pattern.

Two possible solutions to the same problem: more toggles or more muscles.
I would rather build more muscles.


potatoman  (Student)

Dec 13, 2013, 1:20 AM
Post #10 of 27 (3341 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanx, it makes sense. Suppose those used for turning is on the outer cells.

But, back to the topic, anyone?


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Dec 13, 2013, 3:37 PM
Post #11 of 27 (3168 views)
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say 370/365's are the industry standard for most locations with variable weather. Some DZ's in locations that have a constant wind have 340's and some have 340's for light passengers. 402, couldn;t tell you on that one.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Dec 13, 2013, 3:43 PM
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Winds play a factor.

If you jump somewhere with consistent high winds, I would want a tandem canopy on the smaller end.

I really don't see the need for any of the larger ones (over say 366), but that's just me.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 14, 2013, 5:18 PM
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Re: [justme12001] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

justme12001 wrote:
Winds play a factor.

If you jump somewhere with consistent high winds, I would want a tandem canopy on the smaller end.

I really don't see the need for any of the larger ones (over say 366), but that's just me.

.................................................................................

Clearly you have not done as many jumps with "220 pound" students as me.
Hah!
Hah!
Well manifest told me that they only weighed "220 pounds" (published school limit)?????

And I doubt if you have many jumps on F-111 main canopies. Back in the good-old-days, you needed at least 400 square feet of fabric just to slow down the planet.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Dec 16, 2013, 9:35 AM
Post #14 of 27 (2856 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I have(well maybe not as many, maybe more, no way to know). Largest being 260, and a few 240 thrown in for good measure. The 260 guy was actually one of my five level 2 jumps.
The TI-I said he wanted me to take a light person and a heavy person, and guy said he was 235, then told me after landing he was 260 :/

I prefer the larger students, not that I mind the little girls ;). I like a heavy wingloading, my regular canopy is a velo loaded at 2.2. I like the Set 366(yes I actually like it) as an all around for everybody canopy, and I like the Icarus 330 as an all around canopy.

In my defense, I am a larger(pretty strong) guy myself, so the toggle pressure isn't the problem that it can be for others. I also like to build a little speed for landing, and the heavy ones help with this :)


justme12001  (D 29862)

Dec 16, 2013, 9:38 AM
Post #15 of 27 (2848 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no Tandems on F-111, I am pro rated, and jump my fair share of F-111 for demos.

I have a falcon 265 and a startrak II(290)that I use for large flags and tight areas.

Edit.. I have two tandem reserve rides, both on Sets. Are Masters F-111?


(This post was edited by justme12001 on Dec 16, 2013, 9:40 AM)


buckwheatzulu  (D 472)

Dec 16, 2013, 12:21 PM
Post #16 of 27 (2791 views)
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Re: [justme12001] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

We keep a 390 around in the event we need it for passengers with leg mobility issues. It is always nice to be able to shut down the forward speed, to minimise the potential for injury, in these cases.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Dec 16, 2013, 4:27 PM
Post #17 of 27 (2725 views)
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Re: [buckwheatzulu] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll buy that, I know several people that usually like the smaller canopies that will switch to a 400 or whatever is the largest tandem canopy the DZ has if they get a older or otherwise disabled person.

Me personally I like to stick with what I usually jump(depends on DZ). I personally feel that a 366 has more flare power and can shut down better than a 400.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 16, 2013, 6:17 PM
Post #18 of 27 (2691 views)
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Re: [justme12001] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

justme12001 wrote:
I have no Tandems on F-111, I am pro rated, and jump my fair share of F-111 for demos.

I have a falcon 265 and a startrak II(290)that I use for large flags and tight areas.

Edit.. I have two tandem reserve rides, both on Sets. Are Masters F-111?

....................................................................................

Strong Master 425 reserves are made of 0-3 cfm fabric, similar to "F-111."
The earlier Strong tandem reserves were made of comparatively porous fabric, but they should all have been retired by now (if you follow factory inspection guidelines).
The last stack of Strong Master reserves that I repacked, were made of high-grade 0-3 cfm fabric that lookedlike ZP from arm's length. I could only tell the difference when I shook the fabric.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Dec 17, 2013, 2:06 PM
Post #19 of 27 (2550 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Guess I have to take back my comment about not needing anything over 366 ;)

reserve ride time is a good reason for a large canopy


AaronComp  (D 20876)

Dec 17, 2013, 3:48 PM
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a spank job for while in hawaii ,, before i died and became a ghost contractor, , true easy money, cute asian girls almost blowing away in the wind, a micron sigma icurus 330, , all day ,, awesome, but wait , in walks Tucker Jones the 3rd with his three brothers all of equal wait and proportions, im not doing a 720 hook turn just to try and stand these whales up,, after the boss bribed me to stay and work off my own extra wait,, you want the 400 what it is, and that gene wind charm,


grue  (D License)

Feb 17, 2014, 7:16 PM
Post #21 of 27 (1852 views)
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

potatoman wrote:
I am not a TI, nor want to be one, but I like to know stuff.

What are the pros and cons about jumping the 340, 370 and 402 ish size canopies, and what is the more preferred in the industry?

I can tell you that of the rigs I pack at our DZ, most of them are 300s, one is a 285, and one is a 364. The 364 is very, very rarely grabbed by choice.


potatoman  (Student)

Feb 17, 2014, 9:23 PM
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Re: [grue] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Odd...Just been at a club where there were 3 or even more new TNT rigs came in. All with the set366....Big diff from 300..

But then also 4000Ft ASL.


swoopfly  (E License)

Feb 28, 2014, 11:23 PM
Post #23 of 27 (1232 views)
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many situations doing tandems which would warrent a different size.

taking a hundred pound girl in 20 mph winds i like to take the 300. to get some movement when facing into the wind.

With a 250 pound guy i like to take a good flaring big canopy, for all the weight. Usually a sigma 340 if i had a choice.

It all depeneds on your variables and what works good for the situation.


skyshimas  (D 29263)

Mar 4, 2014, 9:15 AM
Post #24 of 27 (1069 views)
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Re: [potatoman] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

As said before usually tandem canopies have two sets of toggles. One for flying around and instructor grabs a second set to have more powerful flare. I've flown icarus 330 with one set of toggles which I was told was set that way to avoid tension knots or line overs don't remember exactly. You can definitely feel greater toggle pressure in one line set up but you also need to pull in less of the toggle to achieve same turn rate.
I also prefer smaller tandem canopies like icarus 330 ,would love to try the smaller ones they have. I don't see any problem flying 330 with a big fella. Jumped couple guys in 260 lbs range with 330 no problem also jumped big dudes on 330 in moab which is I think 4k above sea level and had no issues. I think if you have good canopy skills there is no problem in smaller tandem canopies. Only think that may have an effect is if you have a malfunction it could be more violent in a line over situation.


potatoman  (Student)

Mar 4, 2014, 9:40 PM
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Re: [skyshimas] 340 - 402...why jump what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good info guys, thanx.


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