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Container Differences?

 

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Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 6:56 AM
Post #1 of 35 (3652 views)
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Container Differences? Can't Post

As I'm in the market to buy my first rig Ive been looking at containers both new and used.
I'm trying to learn the differences between the major container manufacturers and their models. ie Curv, Vector3, Wings, Icon and Javelin. (Edit- forgot Mirage and Infinity as well.) Which brings the total to 7!!Crazy
Other then finding out Curv doesn't offer magnetic riser covers (how important is that anyway?) what are the major differences if any? Out of these I do want something FF friendly. I'm a new belly flier now but would want to play around with FF in the future.
Not really asking for which one you "like" more but the actual technical or design differences if any.
Any help appreciated.


(This post was edited by Doug_Davis on Jan 17, 2014, 7:56 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 17, 2014, 7:08 AM
Post #2 of 35 (3593 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
From a technical point of view, they're all fairly similar. It's like looking at similar car models from Ford, Chevy or Dodge. A lot of comes down to personal preference, as they all do they same thing in about the same way.

Shop used. Find a rig that will for you and the canopies that you can comfortably jump on the day you buy the rig (not something that will fit the canopy you 'hope' you can jump in 6 months).

Once you find 'x' brand of container that fits you, your canopies and your budget, ask about that specific one. Ask here, ask your instructor, and ask your rigger (get a rigger), 'Hey, what do you think about Javelin made in 2003, with a ringed harness and stainless hardware?'

When you have a specific container in mind, we can help. When you're just asking 'general' questions, there really is no answer aside from getting the personal opinion of anyone who wants to respond.


mattjw916  (D License)

Jan 17, 2014, 7:32 AM
Post #3 of 35 (3555 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

you forgot Mirage Cool

Anyway, when you're new and flat flying, just concentrate on finding one that fits and is properly sized for the main/reserve combo you need. Don't buy ragged out gutter gear just because it's cheap and you're impatient. Almost everything made in the last 10 years is freefly friendly or can be updated/repaired/freshened up accordingly. If it doesn't have an RSL, add one.

Most, if not all of the options like mag riser covers are just extra bells and whistles you don't need. I'd focus more on making sure all the components are in good working condition: tuck tabs that tuck, pilot chute/mesh in good repair, same goes for bridle/kill line, d-bag not falling apart, deployment handles of a type you are comfortable with, velcro on handles airworthy, etc, etc...

Check out the manufacturer's websites and the gear section here to read reviews for a starting point.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 7:44 AM
Post #4 of 35 (3537 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep forgot Mirage and Infinity. Seeing lots of recommendations for both of them. So add those two to the list as well.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:01 AM
Post #5 of 35 (3500 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Right now? I'm looking at this one. Great price.

http://www.dropzone.com/classifieds/Detailed/Containers/Vector_V3_in_excellent_condition_95_jumps__155419.html


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:13 AM
Post #6 of 35 (3477 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Make sure your container fits the proper size reserve canopy in it. And fits in the middle of the range, not in the "it can be shoehorned in there" range or the "it's smaller than I like but I will probably be OK" range.

Decide on reserve first, main second, container third. Maybe you've already done this.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:16 AM
Post #7 of 35 (3470 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
That one? Have you contacted the seller and confirmed that the harness and container will fit you and the canopies you can safely jump today?

Not much detail in that ad. No sizes, no serial number, no pic........


PixieUK  (A License)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:30 AM
Post #8 of 35 (3452 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

We had a progression weekend towards the end of last season where the instructors gathered a collection of various different types of container and showed us some of the differences.

They had about 8 different models and from my notes, a lot of the differences were around the design of the reserve area - so whether you can see none of the round spring-loaded pilot chute cover (eg Mirage, Icon), part of it (eg Javelin, Wings) or all of it (eg TSE Viper, JumpShack).

There were also options for RSL (some containers don't have these as standard - in the UK from 01 Jan 2014, all A licence jumpers MUST have an RSL fitted and connected, optional for B and above). Other differences were around how the main gets packed, where the bridle lies, the order of folding the flaps etc and whether the leg straps had hip rings or not (I think they're called articulated but don't quote me on that, lol). Chest straps can do up in different ways too plus there may be in-built pockets for hook knives.

From what they told us, pretty much all modern containers work the same way, it's the style that varies which can make a difference to comfort and fit on different people. And obviously making sure you know exactly how to pack your particular make and model.

As to which ones are better than others for anything in particular, I have no clue!


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:33 AM
Post #9 of 35 (3447 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
That one? Have you contacted the seller and confirmed that the harness and container will fit you and the canopies you can safely jump today?

Not much detail in that ad. No sizes, no serial number, no pic........

Seller sent me pics. Im waiting to see if she will ship it to my rigger and let them act as escrow for the sale.

Its a V349 and will fit a 170 normal or 190 Pulse.
During my canopy flight course with Flight 1 I used a 210 Silhouette down at Deland. The Silhouette felt like driving a bus, big and slow.
After the course Maxine, the instructor, suggested that for purchase I look at a 190 Storm or Sabre 2. I used a 7 cell main during my SL course to get my A license so I like the idea of buying the Storm.

With that container I'd have to start with a 190 Pulse due to its size but when I got ready to downsize I could get the 170 Storm then.

Whats everyone think of Curv's? They have stock rigs, in stock, in neutral black colors in the size I need with lots of extras for very reasonable price ($2380). And being a stock rig the turn around time is short.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:53 AM
Post #10 of 35 (3413 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Whats everyone think of Curv's

I ordered one. I've had a Vector, a Reflex, and a Wings before.

They are super comfortable, and unlike a lot of rigs out there, come fully loaded. They incorporate a lot of small features to improve fit, and comfort, and their construction is excellent.

But, if you are aiming at the larger sized main/reserves, even the VC4 doesn't' allow for a very large reserve.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 8:55 AM
Post #11 of 35 (3409 views)
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Re: [Remster] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was aiming for around a 176 or 193 for a reserve. Ive been told reserves fly slower and safer than their size would lead one to believe.


mattjw916  (D License)

Jan 17, 2014, 9:12 AM
Post #12 of 35 (3375 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

that's generally true but remember you quite possibly will need to land that thing downwind, on a hot day, off the DZ, and surrounded by hazards... and all that on your first time flying it...

plan accordingly Wink


woppyvac  (D 33147)

Jan 17, 2014, 11:18 AM
Post #13 of 35 (3250 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

The search option on this site provides a gaggle of info on this topic. BUT to emphasize on a couple things. YOU are are low number but excited jumper. THAT IS 100% COOL. BUT you should think about buying a 'used beater' as opposed to a 'new car...' As you progress you are gonna dink, dank, slid, splash, etc. your first rig until you get more comfortable in the saddle. THAT is 100% normal. I encourage folks to buy something that FITS, is FUNCTIONAL, and FLIES according to your experience. If you really wanna step outa the gates with a new rig. Look at Parachute Labs (Jumpshack) Shadow Racers and the Rigging Innovations Generas. Those will give you new, molded, and safe rides FOR CHEAP until you are prepared to get your final saddle etc. Lastly - AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - talk to your instructors and riggers.


(This post was edited by woppyvac on Jan 17, 2014, 11:24 AM)


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jan 17, 2014, 2:51 PM
Post #14 of 35 (3083 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug_Davis wrote:
I was aiming for around a 176 or 193 for a reserve. Ive been told reserves fly slower and safer than their size would lead one to believe.

..which is what makes buying one the size of your main not immediately crazy, despite the fact it'll be unfamiliar, low and potentially somewhere hazard-filled, the first time you jump it.

The "reserves are docile, having a smaller one will probably be fine" idea contains the skydiving red flag "will probably be fine".

Good luck with your purchase... the modern containers you are looking at are all good, and you are unlikely to go wrong with them Cool


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 5:45 PM
Post #15 of 35 (2979 views)
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Re: [woppyvac] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

woppyvac wrote:
The search option on this site provides a gaggle of info on this topic. BUT to emphasize on a couple things. YOU are are low number but excited jumper. THAT IS 100% COOL. BUT you should think about buying a 'used beater' as opposed to a 'new car...' As you progress you are gonna dink, dank, slid, splash, etc. your first rig until you get more comfortable in the saddle. THAT is 100% normal. I encourage folks to buy something that FITS, is FUNCTIONAL, and FLIES according to your experience. If you really wanna step outa the gates with a new rig. Look at Parachute Labs (Jumpshack) Shadow Racers and the Rigging Innovations Generas. Those will give you new, molded, and safe rides FOR CHEAP until you are prepared to get your final saddle etc. Lastly - AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - talk to your instructors and riggers.

Which is what everyone keeps telling me, but when most used gear I see advertised is only $300 to 500 for a complete rig cheaper than buying a brand new rig is (when buying stock from manufacturers now in the off season and getting package discounts) I just dont see the point in going used.

I found that one Vector 3 container I linked to above for just $1400, but when I emailed the seller asking if she would ship to a rigger for purchase...well she stopped responding so I think its a scam.
For example right now in the classifieds is a store asking $3250 for a two year old container and reserve. I can get a stock brand new container (customized to my size) and PDR brand new for just 3600, so its only saving me $400 bucks. So why not buy new?


JeffCa  (C License)

Jan 17, 2014, 6:52 PM
Post #16 of 35 (2924 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a Racer, which I'd say has several differences from most rigs that I'd classify as "major" and should be noted by anybody looking at one.

1. pop-top reserve pilot chute
2. 2-pin reserve, requiring a different AAD
3. different kind of RSL
4. orange cutaway cables, requiring no grease/oil

Then there are more minor differences, like single-layer harness webbing.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 17, 2014, 7:16 PM
Post #17 of 35 (2900 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug_Davis wrote:
Which is what everyone keeps telling me, but when most used gear I see advertised is only $300 to 500 for a complete rig cheaper than buying a brand new rig is (when buying stock from manufacturers now in the off season and getting package discounts)

That's a good point, if you are finding such situations. (Of course, you are talking about newer used stuff, rather than 5-10 year old gear).

Part of the problem may be the whole MSRP vs dealer price situation:

Someone looks at the suggested new retail prices online, thinks to themselves "there's no way I can afford that!". They only start looking for used gear, because they don't realize that it isn't just a case of looking at the price shown on the web, but contacting dealers too.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 17, 2014, 9:16 PM
Post #18 of 35 (2827 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:
That's a good point, if you are finding such situations. (Of course, you are talking about newer used stuff, rather than 5-10 year old gear).

Yeah Im not going older than 5 years on used stuff.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Jan 18, 2014, 7:08 AM
Post #19 of 35 (2661 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yeah Im not going older than 5 years on used stuff
Here's where talking to a good rigger can really help you.

Javelins have been basically the same since before 2000. Pilots have been out over 10 years, as have been Sabre 2's, and many other current canopies. PD reserves have been around even longer.

These are just the ones that I'm personally familiar with, and that are appropriate for newer jumpers (e.g. Stilettos have been out for even longer, but they're not appropriate for most newer jumpers).

A closet queen can be a great deal -- something that someone bought when they were enthusiastic, and then the gear outlasted the 100 jumps worth of enthusiasm.

Wendy P.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 18, 2014, 8:03 AM
Post #20 of 35 (2633 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
Quote:
Yeah Im not going older than 5 years on used stuff
Here's where talking to a good rigger can really help you.

Javelins have been basically the same since before 2000. Pilots have been out over 10 years, as have been Sabre 2's, and many other current canopies. PD reserves have been around even longer.

These are just the ones that I'm personally familiar with, and that are appropriate for newer jumpers (e.g. Stilettos have been out for even longer, but they're not appropriate for most newer jumpers).

A closet queen can be a great deal -- something that someone bought when they were enthusiastic, and then the gear outlasted the 100 jumps worth of enthusiasm.

Wendy P.

Gotcha. Thanks Wendy.


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 19, 2014, 3:42 PM
Post #21 of 35 (2366 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

So what do people think of the Thomas Sports Viper?
http://www.thomas-sports.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=27&Itemid=18

After watching the youtube video reserve deployment failure video of the AAD, seems a pop top design would eliminate that possibility. Also I will admit from a sheer coolness factor the Alien Skin looks awesome.
And the price is pretty reasonable compared to many US companies.

Pros and cons?


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jan 19, 2014, 4:24 PM
Post #22 of 35 (2336 views)
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Re: [Doug_Davis] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug_Davis wrote:
So what do people think of the Thomas Sports Viper?
http://www.thomas-sports.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=27&Itemid=18

After watching the youtube video reserve deployment failure video of the AAD, seems a pop top design would eliminate that possibility. Also I will admit from a sheer coolness factor the Alien Skin looks awesome.
And the price is pretty reasonable compared to many US companies.

Pros and cons?

Unless something has changed I do not believe that rig has a TSO certification from the FAA, so it would not be legal for you to jump in the US. (visiting jumpers could jump it, other caveats, etc.)


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 19, 2014, 8:32 PM
Post #23 of 35 (2267 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

And after reading the cutter vs push/pull thread and the potential for danger with a cutter on the top of a reserve versus the bottom creating a bag lock should it not fully cut the closing loop....which containers have the cutter placed on the bottom versus the top?


skytribe  (D 9403)

Jan 20, 2014, 8:38 AM
Post #24 of 35 (2050 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe this to be incorrect and the teardrop has a TSO.
TSO C23D I believe. So it is legal for a US citizen to own and jump one in the states and for visiting jumpers.

The gear is fine, resale value is much less than other containers and its got a funky looking RSL setup which people tend to dislike but is functional.

That said, the pilot chute is strong and extraction is quick.

The cutter is mounted on the bottom of the container and takes a bit of extra steps to close up the reserve (but nothing incredibly difficult).

Containers with cutters mounted on the bottom of the container rather than on a flap. (Racer, Javelin, Vortex, Teardrop, Wings to name a few).


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Jan 20, 2014, 11:07 AM
Post #25 of 35 (1929 views)
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Re: [skytribe] Container Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

skytribe wrote:
Containers with cutters mounted on the bottom of the container rather than on a flap. (Racer, Javelin, Vortex, Teardrop, Wings to name a few).

Thats the additional info I was looking for thanks.


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