Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Reserve characteristics?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

lyosha  (A License)

Jan 15, 2014, 1:47 PM
Post #1 of 53 (3203 views)
Shortcut
Reserve characteristics? Can't Post

Hi all,

Can someone compare and contrast the popular reserves on the market today? I understand pack volume is smaller on an Optimum, but which one opens faster? Softer? Which ones flies better/deals better with turbulence? Bigger reserve = harder, faster opening, right? Any other differences between the reserves you can mention?


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 15, 2014, 2:06 PM
Post #2 of 53 (3133 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess is that unless there's someone out there who either test jumps different reserves or really enjoys demoing reserves, this isn't an easy question to answer.

Most people don't have enough reserve deployments to have enough statistical data to compare the opening characteristics.

ETA, the type of mal you have is also going to affect the opening of the reserve (spinning, terminal, etc)

Modern reserves meet their TSO requirements. That's really all that matters in my opinion. One standard 7-cell reserve is probably going to handle much like any other 7-cell reserve


(This post was edited by labrys on Jan 15, 2014, 2:09 PM)


Boogers

Jan 15, 2014, 2:17 PM
Post #3 of 53 (3108 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

lyosha wrote:
Bigger reserve = harder, faster opening, right??

Um, are you considering getting a small reserve in order to have soft openings?

Because if you are, you should re-think that idea. Reserve rides are rare. And when you need one, you might need it to open FAST. Be willing to accept a hard opening on a reserve, because it doesn't happen very often, and it could make the difference between life and death. Do you really want a snivel when you're down to 1,000' of altitude to live? Additionally, a reserve ride might have you landing off-airport, and for that you'll want a larger, slower parachute for a possibly tight landing in unfamiliar territory. Do you want to try and do a high speed swoop into a tiny back yard? If youi've answered "yes" to these questions, then I wish you luck!


(This post was edited by Boogers on Jan 15, 2014, 2:18 PM)


lyosha  (A License)

Jan 15, 2014, 2:22 PM
Post #4 of 53 (3096 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

labrys wrote:
there's someone out there who either test jumps different reserves or really enjoys demoing reserves

I was hoping there was someone out there that has done so. Maybe someone that has had multiple containers and stuck an icarus in one, PD in another and aerodyne in a third...

I'm not considering getting a smaller reserve. If anything, the opposite - I'm annoyed that containers can't allow me to have as large a reserve as I want... one question I have is - is getting a size larger optimum going to make me safer? I just want to understand the dynamics...


(This post was edited by lyosha on Jan 15, 2014, 2:28 PM)


Boogers

Jan 15, 2014, 2:29 PM
Post #5 of 53 (3085 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Another recommended principle is to use a reserve that is about the same size as your main. This is because if you have a malfunction with both canopies out simultaneously, same sizes are much more stable. One smaller and one larger doesn't play well together.


(This post was edited by Boogers on Jan 15, 2014, 2:30 PM)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jan 15, 2014, 2:45 PM
Post #6 of 53 (3043 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Most people don't have enough reserve deployments to have enough statistical data to compare the opening characteristics.

There are a few of us...

Quote:
Modern reserves meet their TSO requirements. That's really all that matters in my opinion. One standard 7-cell reserve is probably going to handle much like any other 7-cell reserve

I would have to disagree on both points.

The TSO requirements have been changed to allow canopies to snivel or have longer deployments. These same reserves, although they may have met the TSO requirements, may not actually meet the TSO requirements of another older TSO like in some of the H/Cs still have.

Besides the fact that if the snivelly reserve is installed with a "standard" Cypres or any other aad that fires at 700-750 feet, you probably did not need the Cypres anyway because it probably ain't gonna work.
Simple math applies here.
You are a couple of seconds from impact and now you have a slow opening reserve..Mad

What bothers me is that most people just do not get it and some of those people are in a position that could provide a little bit of a safety net for it's members.

Also, all 7-cell reserves do not fly the same. At least with the several that I have "tested".Some stall faster, turn faster,etc...

Funny that this thread came up tonight. I have a meeting in the AM about this very subject!

MEL


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jan 15, 2014, 2:48 PM
Post #7 of 53 (3032 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
one question I have is - is getting a size larger optimum going to make me safer? I just want to understand the dynamics...

A larger reserve ain't worth a dime if it does not inflate before you impact.
I refer you to my earlier post also.

MEL


mattjw916  (D License)

Jan 15, 2014, 2:50 PM
Post #8 of 53 (3022 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd ask your local wingsuit flyers for their input too... they seem to chop a lot of canopies... Laugh


lyosha  (A License)

Jan 15, 2014, 2:51 PM
Post #9 of 53 (3016 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

masterrigger1 wrote:
Quote:
one question I have is - is getting a size larger optimum going to make me safer? I just want to understand the dynamics...

A larger reserve ain't worth a dime if it does not inflate before you impact.
I refer you to my earlier post also.

MEL

Yes, I understand this. .. which is why I ask which reserves inflate faster/slower...


RiggerLee

Jan 15, 2014, 3:13 PM
Post #10 of 53 (2973 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well you could get an M series reserve that is prone to opening so fast that it will smack you stupid. They had to have the attachment points upgraded to prevent the lines from ripping off the bottom of the canopy. And that's at ordinary terminal velocity. Good help you if you're head down. It's not like people haven't been killed by hard openings.

So no, canopies are not all the same. I'm just pointing out that no design that takes any characteristic to an extreme is a good design. Yes, some of the newer canopies open slower but that's neither a good nor a bad thing. It's just a choice. There are good arguments for slower opening reserves. They have the potential to survive higher opening speeds and we are flying faster and jumping smaller canopies. All designs have an envelope. Operating them safely means respecting their operating limits, not ignoring the reality of what we are demanding of them. We could jump much faster opening reserves if we were all willing to wear 80's balloon suits and all fall flat on our bellies and maybe lose a little weight.

Lee


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jan 15, 2014, 3:37 PM
Post #11 of 53 (2939 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yes, some of the newer canopies open slower but that's neither a good nor a bad thing. It's just a choice.

Lee,
The problem is that most uneducated jumpers think these slow openings reserves are no different than any other reserve and fail to understand that using these slow opening reserves and a standard Cypres is a bad thing....and add to the fact that no one else except me is telling them that it can be really a bad combo.

It is not a choice if the individual does not know it is a choice either.

Quote:
We could jump much faster opening reserves if we were all willing to wear 80's balloon suits and all fall flat on our bellies and maybe lose a little weight.

I can think of at least five people that probably had wished they had a faster opening reserve lately....

MEL


RiggerLee

Jan 15, 2014, 5:01 PM
Post #12 of 53 (2869 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this a problem with the equipment? Or is it a problem with the people? I mean there is no question that people are dead. It's been discussed from a number of angles. I think there were a number of different factors in some of these accidents. I don't think it's fair to lay the blame for all of them at the feet of slower opening canopies. You have to look at a system as a whole. It's a valid point that a slower opening reserves would surly add yet another link to the chain that could kill some one. but does that mean that they are a bad idea. Help me out. How many damaged reserves have we seen? Some body help me count. How many super Ravens broke lines? I don't recall the exact number. How many M series lost line attachments? Didn't we break lines on a couple of Tempos? I don't recall any of the above dying but some of them got really fucked up. I say that there is valid reason for building higher speed/slower opening reserves.

You could validly say that we are setting our selves up for a compatibility issue but it seems that people are taking steps to deal with it. Changes to the BSR's to allow the AAD manufacturers to set higher altitudes. I can't believe the bitching over that. I'm not saying that there are not problems to be addressed but I'm don't think that slowing the reserves down is a mistake.

For all the issues with the gear I still think the easiest link in the accident chain to break is the human one. It may be necessary for the people to adapt to the realities of the changing jumping environment. If it's a question of education then it's our fault and it falls up on us to change it. I think it would be better if people were to stand up and discus these issues openly. But they seem to worried about loosening their market share. They seem to think that people are just too stupid to grasp all this. So they run around in the dark making these changes, not necessarily bad changes, but changes and hoping no one will notice. In the end all of these things are going to happen any way because they need to happen. We need slower reserves if we are going to fly head down. We need higher opening AAD's. The truth is opening altitudes on mains have already changed but our expectation on reserve performance may need to alter. The only question is how many people will die in the process and that's really just a question of what kind of learning curve we follow.

Lee


lyosha  (A License)

Jan 15, 2014, 5:26 PM
Post #13 of 53 (2835 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

RiggerLee wrote:
Well you could get an M series reserve that is prone to opening so fast that it will smack you stupid.

Okay! Now we're getting somewhere. So it seems people have some idea about hardness/quickness of opening of reserves, and Raven M is very very fast.

How does it compare to a PDR? Icarus Reserve? Optimum?

Could someone make a chain of "quickness of opening" i.e. Raven M < PDR < Icarus < Smart < Optimum < Nano or something of the sort (or even for 2-3 of those, for those that have had to deploy more than a single kind of reserve)? That would be the most helpful outcome of this. It doesn't have to be 100% objective - subjectivity is perfectly fine so long as you are okay with someone having an alternate opinion, and we are talking.

All I seem to find is the same manufacturer-provided "our reserve is the best thing since sliced bread" and "I jumped this reseve and it saved my life therefore it is the best ever!" drivel which doesn't really help me make what I would consider an informed decision :-/


(This post was edited by lyosha on Jan 15, 2014, 5:29 PM)


RiggerLee

Jan 15, 2014, 5:47 PM
Post #14 of 53 (2806 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you really want an M series Raven you can pick one up pretty cheep. they were referred to as Raven-Murder. A lot of people wont jump and a lot of riggers wont pack the early ones with the type three tape. All basically because they opened too fast.

Lee


mattjw916  (D License)

Jan 15, 2014, 6:06 PM
Post #15 of 53 (2778 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skip the old Ravens... they were replaced by the R-Max which is much more modern, built like a tank, and won't snap you in half.


lyosha  (A License)

Jan 15, 2014, 6:10 PM
Post #16 of 53 (2769 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

RiggerLee wrote:
If you really want an M series Raven you can pick one up pretty cheep. they were referred to as Raven-Murder. A lot of people wont jump and a lot of riggers wont pack the early ones with the type three tape. All basically because they opened too fast.

Lee

I don't want to snap myself in half or buy a cheap Raven M series, I want information to make an informed decision... :(


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Jan 15, 2014, 6:28 PM
Post #17 of 53 (2752 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

From talking to people at my drop zone who use their reserves often, the PD-Optimum seems to be one of the best flying, strongest flaring reserves but has slow snivelly openings. An instructor used his at terminal a couple of months ago and was surprised by the snivel. This probably explains why they support some of the highest maximum weights around. They were also tested far above TSO required opening speeds.

Like others have mentioned, this could be good or bad. It needs to be factored into your gear selection/combination and type of jumping.

Here is video evidence of where it can be bad. Video below is a cutaway at 800ft, no RSL/MARD, jumper can't find reserve due to loose chest strap, Cypres fires at 600ft, PD optimum 143 just barely opens in time to save his life. He still sustains very serious injuries. If the reserve opened just a fraction faster, he may have avoided a hospital stay and lots of broken bones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1TMqJLk4U8

Detailed write up about incident here.

http://www.deepseed.com/...o-pull-cypres-save-0

<EDIT>
I should also point out there are several links in the chain other than the reserve opening speed that could have avoided this incident.

e.g.
Human Factor - Unstow brakes and check canopy before passing hard deck. Don't chop low. Don't loosen your chest strap, hand on reserve before cutaway, etc
Gear Factor - Use an RSL/MARD, Raise AAD firing height. Reserve selection. Tightness of container. etc.


(This post was edited by pnuwin on Jan 15, 2014, 6:39 PM)


lyosha  (A License)

Jan 15, 2014, 7:16 PM
Post #18 of 53 (2700 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pnuwin] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

pnuwin wrote:
From talking to people at my drop zone who use their reserves often, the PD-Optimum seems to be one of the best flying, strongest flaring reserves but has slow snivelly openings.

This is very helpful, thank you. Would you say it will actually inflate longer than a PDR one size lower (equivalent pack volume) due to the opening snivel? Assume a more conservative wing loading (i.e. 1.3-1.4 on PDR, 1.2-1.3 on OPT).

Also, what about the nano? It's rated for less weight. Does this mean it will actually open faster?

What about PDR vs. Smart vs. Icarus Reserve?


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 15, 2014, 8:17 PM
Post #19 of 53 (2644 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The TSO requirements have been changed to allow canopies to snivel or have longer deployments. These same reserves, although they may have met the TSO requirements, may not actually meet the TSO requirements of another older TSO like in some of the H/Cs still have.

That's good information indeed, but the OP asked about current, modern reserves.


theplummeter  (C License)

Jan 15, 2014, 8:56 PM
Post #20 of 53 (2609 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had two cutaways in two months (if you borrow a beat up old Stiletto, check the trim!) and both led to rides on Micro Raven 150 reserve canopies built in 2001. The openings were fast but not hard and on heading. I can only imagine that a newer R-max or PD should be better than what I experienced, but both of my rides followed sub-terminal deployment at higher altitudes with a RSL beating me to the reserve handle.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Jan 15, 2014, 9:33 PM
Post #21 of 53 (2583 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

labrys wrote:
My guess is that unless there's someone out there who either test jumps different reserves or really enjoys demoing reserves, this isn't an easy question to answer.
I plan to do something like this in the spring. Demo a handful of resesrves (PD, OP, maybe Nano or Smart) and put a bunch of jumps on them, keep detailed notes, and write up an article for DZ/Parachutist/BlueSkies talking about how they pack, open, fly, and land. I can't perfectly duplicate a reserve opening, but I can free pack it like a reserve or base canopy to simulate it.


Emu

Jan 16, 2014, 1:52 AM
Post #22 of 53 (2440 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mel,

Have you had a chance to jump the Nano?

I have enjoyed my Optimum rides but I cant say I'm particularly fond of freefall below 1000ft waiting for them to open.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jan 16, 2014, 1:58 AM
Post #23 of 53 (2435 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is this a problem with the equipment? Or is it a problem with the people? I mean there is no question that people are dead. It's been discussed from a number of angles. I think there were a number of different factors in some of these accidents.

Lee,
You missed the whole point.
The point is that after everything is said and done with the canopy at line stretch, you do not want (or should not want) a canopy that snivels after a Cypres fire.
It is a well known fact that OPT reserves do have slower openings and people still put then in a rig with a standard Cypres.

Why is that?......too much Kool-aid???
No, it is because no one is educating the population that this is a bad thing.

Quote:
I don't think it's fair to lay the blame for all of them at the feet of slower opening canopies

I never said that I blame all of them on slow opening reserve canopies, but it is a decent percentage of them.

Quote:
You have to look at a system as a whole. It's a valid point that a slower opening reserves would surly add yet another link to the chain that could kill some one. but does that mean that they are a bad idea.

The OP was inquiring about reserve canopies only. Please do not con-volute the thread with the other equipment issues.

Quote:
How many damaged reserves have we seen? Some body help me count. How many super Ravens broke lines? I don't recall the exact number.

Probably about as many as other reserves.

Quote:
How many M series lost line attachments?

Two.
One was a manufacturing defect. The bartack machine had a burred needle that was never changed out which perforated the line attachments.

The other was at a very high elevation, head down and the jumper was well over the placarded weight of the canopy.

The difference between the Raven issues and the OPT is that the Raven issues were publicly addressed and also fixed by the manufacturer.

Quote:
You could validly say that we are setting our selves up for a compatibility issue but it seems that people are taking steps to deal with it. Changes to the BSR's to allow the AAD manufacturers to set higher altitudes.

I AM saying that there is a compatibility issue.
Also what steps are taken to prevent people from jumping a known bad combination of gear???

I will answer that for you. NONE

But, they did raise the openings altitudes to maybe prevent a lesser number of fatalities.Mad

MEL


(This post was edited by masterrigger1 on Jan 16, 2014, 4:35 AM)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jan 16, 2014, 2:06 AM
Post #24 of 53 (2433 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

The TSO requirements have been changed to allow canopies to snivel or have longer deployments. These same reserves, although they may have met the TSO requirements, may not actually meet the TSO requirements of another older TSO like in some of the H/Cs still have.

That's good information indeed, but the OP asked about current, modern reserves.

Yes, and the OPT is a current modern reserve that has to be put into some container to be used.

What is being looked at later this AM is the TSO performance standards and compatibility issues between the different variations of TSOs.


MEL


virgin-burner

Jan 16, 2014, 4:20 AM
Post #25 of 53 (2373 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lyosha] Reserve characteristics? [In reply to] Can't Post

i have one ride on an optimum, the opening was very comfortable and the landing smooth as butter. the way the malfunction occured, neither my body-position nor anything else was "textbook-like" when i deployed.

probably doesnt answer your question, but i would trust my life to an optimum any day. i'm a fan of it! Smile


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Gear and Rigging

 


Search for (options)