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Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers?

 

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Poll: Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers?
USPA Should list two records - the largest group and the largest group of locals 13 / 15%
USPA should post only one record - the largest group 71 / 85%
84 total votes
 
tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:52 AM
Post #1 of 49 (3104 views)
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Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? Can't Post

Background:

*There is some debate online about a jumper that blew a record and people who posted how a group of folks trained real hard to earn a state record.

*I have witnessed some people be frustrated that they, and their local friends, were not invited on a state record jump, where the organizer brought in a bunch of out of town folks and professional tunnel instructors, but they were told no. They honestly wanted a shot at earning a record for all their hard work.

*I am on at least two state records (historical) that almost everyone on the jump was from out of state.

*State records should have a certain aspect of "state pride", especially when friends who jump together a lot accomplish something.

*Skydivers do travel a lot, so state records often have the same participants. Without some sort of tracking, state records might start to look like national records where each state earns a record using many of the same people.

*State records are often beat at boogies and special events with out of state visitors.

*In order to promote locals to compete, and promote training - maybe there should be some credit given to records where locals are the participants.

Therefore - I think I would support the following - would you? The motion that could be presented at a USPA meeting might look like this:
Quote:

I move that the USPA, from January 1, 2014 on, when documenting state records, shall post the following information about each record:
*Discipline (head down, belly to earth, etc)
*Date, plate, time
*Aircraft used

*Number of participants with mailing addresses in the USPA database from the state where the record was made - to be referred as Local Participants

*Number of participants with mailing addresses in the USPA database from out of state - to be referred as Visitor Participants

*Number of non-USPA members - to be referred as International or non-USPA Participants


*The USPA shall post on the website and other official places where records are posted, the largest successful group in total, and the record with the largest number of local participants as defined above. If those are one in the same, then only one record shall be published.

*All records earned prior to January 1, 2014 shall be notated with "unknown" for the count of local jumpers, unless accurate data can be compiled and the record organizer resubmits the data. Organizers must submit their data on the prior records by March 31, 2014 otherwise the record will be permanently marked "unknown" for the local jumper count.

*All new record submissions after January 1, 2014 will be tracked with the additional data compiled, and therefore new records may be added with the largest local group. It shall be the responsibility of the organizer to document local participants, and the USPA shall verify the records accordingly.

*The official state record shall remain the largest group skydive, without regard to the ratio of locals versus visitors. The record jump with the highest number of locals, which shall be shown secondary to the official state record, is simply tracked and documented to promote local skydiving and reward communities who strive to achieve success locally. They shall not be penalized by adding out of state participants to the jump, as coaches, mentors or participants, as the number of visitor jumpers shall work towards the total jumper count and shall also be shown.


(This post was edited by tdog on Nov 6, 2013, 7:56 AM)


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:59 AM
Post #2 of 49 (2968 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, in 3 minutes, it appears the idea is a losing one...

Wonder why? Since I said the offiical record would remain the largest group, why not track a 2nd record of the largest local group? Other than paperwork nightmare. Cool


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:01 AM
Post #3 of 49 (2954 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

The USPA won't publish that a record was rescinded due to a Photoshopped cheat. Expecting them to add layers to records seems a more unrealistic expectation.

However, anyone can contact their RD and ask for time before the Comp Committee to be heard.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #4 of 49 (2924 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you wanted to ensure that state records represented the talents of the people who resided in the state, what if you just changed the requirements so that the largest state record had to have X% of the participants with a mailing address in the state (based on USPA records - I wouldn't expect USPA to get more involved in check their database to see where the person gets Parachutist sent, and it would be the accountability of the jumper who wants to be on the record to make sure that it's updated when they do the record - so if they live in Iowa and want to be on the Iowa record but Parachutist still goes to their Mom's house in Delaware, it's up to them to fix it.)

Having multiple versions just seems like a headache and overcomplicating it.

I'm not fully convinced that such a change would be needed, but if so, make it less complex.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #5 of 49 (2911 views)
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Re: [DSE] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, how do you prove someone is local? USPA address on file? Official government issued ID? How long do they have to 'reside" in an area to be considered local? What about those that live in one state and jump in another?

Lots of technical questions to be answered.

Starting to sound like surfing.....Locals only!

top


skydivecat  (C License)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:15 AM
Post #6 of 49 (2889 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

This opens up a whole can of worms for unseen complications. For example, a jumper who lives in one state, but travels to and jumps at a DZ in another state as their home DZ. Now its a numbers game as to who is from where therefore they should be on the record as opposed to it being about putting together a team of people who can safely work together to achieve something.


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #7 of 49 (2857 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew someone would ask that, how to keep track of official addresses, my answer is if someone wants to change their uspa mailing address to help win a record, let them do it. considering the official state record will still be total number of jumpers, it would be just state pride, nothing more. There will always be cheaters, my idea was just to promote the accomplishment of locals too.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #8 of 49 (2773 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want the state record to be full of state jumpers, organise a record full of people from that state. If they're good enough, they'll get it. Job done.

If not, well, better work a bit harder then.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #9 of 49 (2756 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is something that can be kept up with on a local level among the states DZs.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:37 AM
Post #10 of 49 (2739 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

bob.dino wrote:
If you want the state record to be full of state jumpers, organise a record full of people from that state. If they're good enough, they'll get it. Job done.

If not, well, better work a bit harder then.

we have a winner...


ryoder  (D 6663)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:41 AM
Post #11 of 49 (2720 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

tdog wrote:
Ok, in 3 minutes, it appears the idea is a losing one...

I see Simon voted.Sly


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:54 AM
Post #12 of 49 (2669 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

grimmie wrote:
bob.dino wrote:
If you want the state record to be full of state jumpers, organise a record full of people from that state. If they're good enough, they'll get it. Job done.

If not, well, better work a bit harder then.

we have a winner...

I think you missed the point a bit, maybe because I did not disclose some data...

The state record I have (not in my state) cannot be beat by locals without extremely expensive cost of entry... Why:

1) The state does not have enough turbine aircraft. Would require extra aircraft to be brought in. That us how we did it, for a boogie. Common practice I know, but see point two.

2) Simply not enough active local jumpers to fill the slots. Is it realistic to expect organizers to find 40+ people to go thru AFF and get 300+ jumps?

I just thought this could be a fun way to let the "locals" have fun too. But the votes are in, the idea is not supported.


(This post was edited by tdog on Nov 6, 2013, 8:57 AM)


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:56 AM
Post #13 of 49 (2656 views)
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Re: [skydivecat] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For example, a jumper who lives in one state, but travels to and jumps at a DZ in another state as their home DZ.

That could have been handled with a simple document submitted with the record attempt: "I declare XYZ my home DZ as it is where I jump the most, therefore for the next 12 months I call my home state X".


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #14 of 49 (2639 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

CSpenceFLY wrote:
This is something that can be kept up with on a local level among the states DZs.

I like this idea a lot...

My idea or goal was to allow current local fun jumpers to organize something, for the fun of it, to accomplish a challenge, for the sake of the journey... How about instead the USPA adds to the state record data a "notable accomplishments" field where people could submit things like, "A group of 20 jumpers who call XYZ dropzone their home accomplished a 20 way head down." The 200 way head down filled with out of state folks will still be the record, but the people who worked hard locally can get rewards too...

I like it.Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:02 AM
Post #15 of 49 (2621 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Years ago...and I mean YEARS ago - a bunch of peeps in the midwest went state to state setting the records, it was basically the same group of people just traveling around to get the records. Didn't mean anything 'special' then & doesn't now.

'State' record is much to do about nothing IMHO...world records are where the bragging rights sit.

The rest is just paperwork to hang on a wall...that said, I too find it appalling someone would 'throw' a record attempt for ANY reason.

WE are supposed to be better than that. Unimpressed


shropshire  (C License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:03 AM
Post #16 of 49 (2598 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why does it matter where individuals come from?
Unless it's a location based competition


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:05 AM
Post #17 of 49 (2590 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

shropshire wrote:
Why does it matter where individuals come from?
Unless it's a location based competition

Two possible answers come to mind:

1) Then why have "state records"?
2) Why do people root for their home football or home soccer team? Because a bit of friendly competition is fun.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:10 AM
Post #18 of 49 (2564 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

tdog wrote:
shropshire wrote:
Why does it matter where individuals come from?
Unless it's a location based competition

Two possible answers come to mind:

1) Then why have "state records"?
2) Why do people root for their home football or home soccer team? Because a bit of friendly competition is fun.

Exactly...WHY do we have STATE records?

For the longest time Mississippi's record was an 8 way IIRC... so what?

Cali, Fla & Texas have bigger DZ's, of course their records are larger...it's not NCAA where the 'playing field' is level.


shropshire  (C License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:10 AM
Post #19 of 49 (2560 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

tdog wrote:
shropshire wrote:
Why does it matter where individuals come from?
Unless it's a location based competition

Two possible answers come to mind:

1) Then why have "state records"?
2) Why do people root for their home football or home soccer team? Because a bit of friendly competition is fun.

so (1) is my Location based thingy

Football teams are a classic mix of folks from all of the country .. or even world these days


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:12 AM
Post #20 of 49 (2541 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

shropshire wrote:
tdog wrote:
shropshire wrote:
Why does it matter where individuals come from?
Unless it's a location based competition

Two possible answers come to mind:

1) Then why have "state records"?
2) Why do people root for their home football or home soccer team? Because a bit of friendly competition is fun.

so (1) is my Location based thingy

Football teams are a classic mix of folks from all of the country .. or even world these days


+1


yoink

Nov 6, 2013, 9:19 AM
Post #21 of 49 (2505 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

tdog wrote:
1) Then why have "state records"?
.

Because they provide motivation to train for something achievable.

I might well never get on a WR attempt, but if I put the time, effort and money in, maybe I could get on a a State one... That gives me a goal to improve myself.

It also provides an avenue to bring cash into DZs and towns from out-of-town jumpers, and gives an excuse for a party.


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 6, 2013, 9:19 AM)


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:22 AM
Post #22 of 49 (2490 views)
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Re: [yoink] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
tdog wrote:
1) Then why have "state records"?
.

Because they provide motivation to train for something achievable.

I might well never get on a WR attempt, but if I put the time, effort and money in, maybe I could get on a a State one... That gives me a goal to improve myself.

It also provides an avenue to bring cash into DZs and towns from out-of-town jumpers, and gives an excuse for a party.

>>>I might well never get on a WR attempt

That is the exact reason why I agree!!! But I have seen more than once the state ones be so highly competitive with out of towners that the locals who spend every weekend at the DZ are not invited to even try out. I thought it could be cool to promote events/records where those people would be encouraged to join.

But, 97% of the people currently disagree with this idea, so by a landslide the idea is a looser.Tongue Just thinking of ways to help some friends who really are working hard at being great skydivers.


(This post was edited by tdog on Nov 6, 2013, 9:24 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #23 of 49 (2486 views)
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Re: [yoink] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It also provides an avenue to bring cash into DZs...

Nailed it! Wink


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:27 AM
Post #24 of 49 (2456 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

tdog wrote:
shropshire wrote:
Why does it matter where individuals come from?
Unless it's a location based competition

Two possible answers come to mind:

1) Then why have "state records"?
2) Why do people root for their home football or home soccer team? Because a bit of friendly competition is fun.

There is more to this...

Alot of us may never get good enough to break a world record. Being part of a State Record attempt (especially an organized one) is a challeng, a learning tool, and a stepping stone to bigger things. There is real value here.

Also, Outside Expertise, brought in to organize, train, teach, participate, even compete for slots, help to raise the bar for all of us. A little heathy competition only makes us better.

If you get benched at a bigway event, it's not a disgrace. It's a challenge for you to get better. Plus, often it's a safety net to keep it safe. Put on your big boy panties and make some more skydives!!!!Cool


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #25 of 49 (2453 views)
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Re: [tdog] Should the USPA also post record jumps with the highest count of local jumpers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have seen more than once the state ones be so highly competitive with out of towners that the locals who spend every weekend at the DZ are not invited to even try out.

Then they're not that good huh.

I mean if having a record is THAT important - you could expand it to 'record of locals with red & jumpsuits'...on & on.

However I hope we never get to the stage 'everybody gets a trophy'...Sly


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