Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
AAD "OFF button" reachable

 

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format  (B 15348)

Nov 4, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #1 of 28 (3656 views)
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AAD "OFF button" reachable Can't Post

You can do this (or not):
- loosen chest strap
- loosen leg strap
- you can look around
- you can dial a number in your cell phone
- steer your canopy
- cutaway your main canopy
- open your reserve
- disconnect your reserve static line (RSL)
- listen to your slider flapping
- move your body
- think
but you can not turn ON/OFF your automatic activation device (AAD) when it's on your back
or, 'heaven forbid' change it's mode.

What's the story behind it?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 4, 2013, 10:41 AM
Post #2 of 28 (3559 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Other than turning off an AAD if you're going to ride down with the plane, what are the scenarios under which you think you might want/need to be able to change your AAD's settings after boarding the aircraft?


Hellis

Nov 4, 2013, 10:48 AM
Post #3 of 28 (3537 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

FXC12000 Tongue


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Nov 4, 2013, 11:22 AM
Post #4 of 28 (3472 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What's the story behind it?

The story is that when the CYPRES came out, a major selling point was that is was inconspicuous. Back then the cool kids did not use AADs. They were for students and sissies only. The ASTRA came out first and was mounted openly and failed miserably. People are going to point out that the control unit needs to be protected and that is true. But the main reason for hiding it originally was the lack of coolness factor.

EDIT I may be remembering wrong about when the ASTRA came out. But it sure did fizzle in the sales department.


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Nov 4, 2013, 11:34 AM)


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 4, 2013, 12:17 PM
Post #5 of 28 (3379 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never once thought to myself, "Gee, I wish I could shut my Cypres off now" while riding in a plane. Not even the one time everyone had to ride the plane down due to some insane weather out of nowhere in Longmont.

We were in one of SDAZ's Otters and Suzy looked over her shoulder and said "We're going down!" or something to that effect... I thought the tandem passenger next to me was going to have a heart attack. I literally saw all the blood drain out of his face as he clutched a seat belt. Laugh


yoink

Nov 4, 2013, 12:27 PM
Post #6 of 28 (3355 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Chances are that if the control button was accessible, at some point someone would accidentally alter the setting in the plane by leaning on something, or would think they can turn it on / reset it in flight and would be in a whole world of hurt....


I would much, much, much rather have it inaccessible and set it right n the ground.


Something that can potentially release a reserve PC is NOT something I want people messing with in a plane.


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 4, 2013, 12:28 PM)


chemist  (A License)

Nov 4, 2013, 12:37 PM
Post #7 of 28 (3319 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

mattjw916 wrote:
I have never once thought to myself, "Gee, I wish I could shut my Cypres off now" while riding in a plane. Not even the one time everyone had to ride the plane down due to some insane weather out of nowhere in Longmont.

are you being sarcastic? I thought if you back out or weather bad everyone is supposed to turn off their AADs or else those puppies will fire open the reserves on the plane ride down


format  (B 15348)

Nov 4, 2013, 12:54 PM
Post #8 of 28 (3286 views)
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Re: [yoink] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
...at some point someone would accidentally alter the setting in the plane by leaning on something, or would think they can turn it on / reset it in flight and would be in a whole world of hurt...

That I understand..
To paraphrase some SF movie line... I believe it was "Contact" (1997):
"Doctor, this suicide pill, we give it for thousands of reasons we can think of.. but mostly for reasons we can't".


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 4, 2013, 12:58 PM
Post #9 of 28 (3273 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed.

I think the pilot would appreciate his W&B to be stationary as well.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Nov 4, 2013, 1:05 PM
Post #10 of 28 (3269 views)
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Re: [chemist] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

chemist wrote:

are you being sarcastic? I thought if you back out or weather bad everyone is supposed to turn off their AADs or else those puppies will fire open the reserves on the plane ride down

Vigil Recommendation: Take care to not exceed the activation velocity near When the user decides to ride down with the aircraft in lieu of jumping, the pilot must be advised of the status of your
Vigil® to limit his descent rate according to the mode [less than 45mph (20m/sec) for “STUDENT” and less than
78mph (35m/sec) for “PRO” or “TANDEM”] and set activation altitude (this is especially important for Vigil®
programmed in “STUDENT” mode).
In these circumstances we recommend that the Vigil® be switched off, if possible.


Cypres recommendation: Take care to not exceed the activation velocity near or below the activation altitude(s) when descending with skydivers. Our measurements indicate
that extraordinary rates of descent are achieved
in turbine aircraft, as the pilot is concentrating on
max airspeed, and typical aircraft VSI instruments
are heavily damped and “peg” at 3,000 ft./minute.
Note: in the case of Student CYPRES, always make
sure the jumpmaster has switched them off prior to
descent in ANY aircraft.


I cannot quickly find any specific guidance in the MARS manual (it may be in there, I will take a longer look when I have more time).

Know your gear.


format  (B 15348)

Nov 4, 2013, 1:31 PM
Post #11 of 28 (3231 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
Other than turning off an AAD if you're going to ride down with the plane, what are the scenarios under which you think you might want/need to be able to change your AAD's settings after boarding the aircraft?
You got me there. I wasn't that prepared.
I'm only saying that the jump itself is not that free if some one or something is watching over you.
But it's not that unimaginable, depending on jump conditions - set it on "1", when in stable free fall - set it on "2" or "off".
When I may need help, I welcome it
when I don't - I don't.

edit: exactly like slider - when it does it's job, I want it off the rig


(This post was edited by format on Nov 4, 2013, 1:34 PM)


Deimian

Nov 4, 2013, 2:00 PM
Post #12 of 28 (3174 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
When I may need help, I welcome it
when I don't - I don't.

How do you know you are not going to need it? What if an ass collides with your canopy, breaking some lines and collapsing the main, and leave you unconscious at the same time? What if you are not unconscious and cutaway but you are too low and do not react as fast as you should? Chances are that you won't need the AAD after you have a functioning main, but why on earth would you like to turn it off? Unless you are doing mad swoops that can trigger your swoop friendly AAD (highly unlikely), I don't see the point.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 4, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #13 of 28 (3133 views)
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Re: [chemist] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

chemist wrote:
mattjw916 wrote:
I have never once thought to myself, "Gee, I wish I could shut my Cypres off now" while riding in a plane. Not even the one time everyone had to ride the plane down due to some insane weather out of nowhere in Longmont.

are you being sarcastic? I thought if you back out or weather bad everyone is supposed to turn off their AADs or else those puppies will fire open the reserves on the plane ride down

See this discussion: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4557627#4557627


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 4, 2013, 2:30 PM
Post #14 of 28 (3098 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

So you can't come up with any scenarios under which you'd want to turn it off but "just in case?"

For me, a decision about whether to use my AAD or not is a decision I make on the ground. Other than a time when I was accompanying/supervising an observer and knew I'd be riding the plane back down (so no jump was even planned), I can't think of a single time where my decision on the ground was "turn off my AAD for this jump," even hop & pops (I do not do high-performance landings, so that's not a risk factor for me). I suppose "exiting the plane very low" might be one, but in that case (unless it's an emergency situation, in which case turning off my AAD would NOT be my highest priority), I'd like to think I'd ride back down rather than risk exiting so low that I'd spook my AAD.

Because of that, I'm having as much trouble as you are coming up with an example of why I'd want to turn it off or change it to a different mode after I'd already boarded the plane (heck I can't even come up with a reason to put it in a different mode on the ground, at least not for me - I suppose if I were loaning my rig to a student, I'd put it in student mode.)


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Nov 4, 2013, 2:58 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 4, 2013, 2:53 PM
Post #15 of 28 (3037 views)
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Re: [chemist] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

chemist wrote:
mattjw916 wrote:
I have never once thought to myself, "Gee, I wish I could shut my Cypres off now" while riding in a plane. Not even the one time everyone had to ride the plane down due to some insane weather out of nowhere in Longmont.

are you being sarcastic? I thought if you back out or weather bad everyone is supposed to turn off their AADs or else those puppies will fire open the reserves on the plane ride down

It's a whole lot easier if the pilot just doesn't descent rapidly near the activation altitude of the AAD's. Hell, the plane is on final before it gets to 1,000 feet anyway. From there to the ground the vertical speed of the plane should be well below the activation speed of the AAD's.


yoink

Nov 4, 2013, 2:54 PM
Post #16 of 28 (3030 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
That I understand..
To paraphrase some SF movie line... I believe it was "Contact" (1997):
"Doctor, this suicide pill, we give it for thousands of reasons we can think of.. but mostly for reasons we can't".


But I gave you an exceptionally GOOD reason not to give it at all...

Just because you could, doesn't mean you should. And you'll have to come up with something other than 'maybe there's some reason we haven't though of' to trump my 'lets not kill everyone on the aircraft' card.


Edit: If you're descending with the aircraft due to weather, just tell the pilot that you've got an AAD on and they can alter their descent to accommodate.

edit edit... chuck beat me to it.


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 4, 2013, 2:56 PM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 4, 2013, 7:40 PM
Post #17 of 28 (2825 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Minor correction Chuck .... below 1,000 feet (Above Ground Level) the airplane will be in the landing pattern and the pilot is (legally) supposed to slow down, fit in between other airplanes and fly a predictable landing pattern that includes down-wind, base and final legs. Competent pilots also announce their intentions - on the radio - and keep an eye out for other traffic.

None of the above (good behaviour) involves descending fast enough to scare an AAD.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:15 PM
Post #18 of 28 (2802 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on how busy that airport is IMO.

I've had some speedy rides down.

I think it smart to remind the pilot of AAD's.
I don't think we should all be shuffling around trying to wrestle rigs around to shut down an AAD.

YMMV


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 4, 2013, 9:49 PM
Post #19 of 28 (2758 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

>edit: exactly like slider - when it does it's job, I want it off the rig

Do you feel the same way about your reserve, RSL or Skyhook?

AAD's are there for problems you don't expect to have, not problems you expect to have.


format  (B 15348)

Nov 4, 2013, 10:41 PM
Post #20 of 28 (2729 views)
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Re: [billvon] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>edit: exactly like slider - when it does it's job, I want it off the rig

Do you feel the same way about your reserve, RSL or Skyhook?

AAD's are there for problems you don't expect to have, not problems you expect to have.
Disconnecting RSL shackle, disconnecting AAD shackle... great idea.. really!


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 5, 2013, 4:46 AM
Post #21 of 28 (2573 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but you can not turn ON/OFF your automatic activation device (AAD) when it's on your back

'I think' the old Astra AAD had an on/off module that mounted externally on your mudflap, so you could turn it off while the rig was on. Of course, that AAD is out of production, so who knows if that was a good idea or not.

As others have mentioned, I'm having a real hard time thinking of a situation where I would board the plane with an AAD activated, and then my plans would change such that I didn't want it activated any longer.

Again as others have mentioned, if you're pilot is descending fast enough down below activation altitude, there's some crazy unsafe flying going on. The 78mph activation speed equals about a 6800 feet per minute descent, and FYI, 'regular' pilots are generally at something less than 500 feet per minute descent down under 1000ft. If they're descending at more than 10x that rate under 1000ft, that's more or less airshow stunt flying. and not something any pilot should be doing outside of an airshow, and especially into an airport where there are parachutes landing.


Freeflaw  (C License)

Nov 8, 2013, 1:27 PM
Post #22 of 28 (2217 views)
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Re: [davelepka] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Swooping? But why not a speed then? I can see the appeal of switching it off entirely.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2013, 8:36 PM
Post #23 of 28 (2105 views)
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Re: [format] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
billvon wrote:
>edit: exactly like slider - when it does it's job, I want it off the rig

Do you feel the same way about your reserve, RSL or Skyhook?

AAD's are there for problems you don't expect to have, not problems you expect to have.
Disconnecting RSL shackle, disconnecting AAD shackle... great idea.. really!


No...it's not.

Really.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 8, 2013, 10:18 PM
Post #24 of 28 (2073 views)
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Re: [Deimian] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

Deimian wrote:
format wrote:
When I may need help, I welcome it
when I don't - I don't.

How do you know you are not going to need it? What if an ass collides with your canopy, breaking some lines and collapsing the main, and leave you unconscious at the same time? What if you are not unconscious and cutaway but you are too low and do not react as fast as you should? Chances are that you won't need the AAD after you have a functioning main, but why on earth would you like to turn it off? Unless you are doing mad swoops that can trigger your swoop friendly AAD (highly unlikely), I don't see the point.

Yea....those are the things I would worry about......Unimpressed

Sparky


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Nov 21, 2013, 12:22 PM
Post #25 of 28 (1632 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] AAD "OFF button" reachable [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
S I suppose "exiting the plane very low" might be one, but in that case (unless it's an emergency situation, in which case turning off my AAD would NOT be my highest priority), I'd like to think I'd ride back down rather than risk exiting so low that I'd spook my AAD.

I'm not sure your AAD would spook at all. I suppose you would either act appropriately, or you'd probably fail to exceed the AAD-activation speed while faced with an "exiting very low"-scenario.


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