Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Learn on/off for every AAD.

 

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jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 3, 2013, 4:27 PM
Post #1 of 26 (3338 views)
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Learn on/off for every AAD. Can't Post

Most of us get very proficient turning our own AAD model's on and off. Even most AFF instructors get very good at turning AAD's on for student gear, but turning it off doesn't happen often.

Found myself in a rare situation this weekend where we took off in very calm winds, but on jump run we got the call from manifest that wind gusts were hitting 20+. We had three AFF students in the plane (Two Cat A's and one Cat D). All students and every instructor and one camera guy, stayed and landed with the plane. We had every type of AAD you could imagine on the plane. Some are easier than others to turn off. Learn them all, so you can be prepared to help your buddy who has an AAD that you may not be familiar with. We got all 10 AAD's off and landed successfully.

Oh, and I hate landing with the plane. Cheers!


ChuckMartin  (D License)

Nov 3, 2013, 8:28 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would you turn them off because you are landing with the plane? I have had to land with it a few times and have never even thought about turning it off and nobody else did either. I don't think a planes decent would ever reach the speeds needed to activate the ADD into thinking its on a skydive or hit the speeds it needs fire an AAD.


grue  (D License)

Nov 3, 2013, 8:36 PM
Post #3 of 26 (3057 views)
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Re: [ChuckMartin] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

ChuckMartin wrote:
Why would you turn them off because you are landing with the plane? I have had to land with it a few times and have never even thought about turning it off and nobody else did either. I don't think a planes decent would ever reach the speeds needed to activate the ADD into thinking its on a skydive or hit the speeds it needs fire an AAD.

They can, will, and do. Not every time, but it does happen.


JeffCa  (C License)

Nov 3, 2013, 8:52 PM
Post #4 of 26 (3034 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

I asked about this because my AAD control is under a flap next to my back and cannot be accessed when I'm wearing the rig. The response I got was that it's the pilot's responsibility to descend at sub-activation speeds in the activation altitude window. The pilot knows this and knows what to do.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 3, 2013, 9:17 PM
Post #5 of 26 (3003 views)
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Re: [JeffCa] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed!
Professional pilots descend at less than the red-line.
The better pilots fly predictable landing patterns (below 1,000 feet above ground level) at similar airspeeds and rates of descent as the other traffic.
The best professional jump-pilots reduce their rate of descent before 2,000 feet AGL if they have tandems onboard.


Hellis

Nov 3, 2013, 11:46 PM
Post #6 of 26 (2899 views)
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Re: Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe there is two sides of this.

On one side I don't see any benefit at all to memorize the on/off on all AAD's because it's such a rare event that when/if it happens I will most likely forget it anyway.
Also if somone on the plane has a "odd" AAD he/she knows how to use the said AAD, so why should I know? This person can tell me how to operate his/her AAD.
And generally AADs fire low and at a high speed, why would a pilot fly that way with a full load?


But on the other side of it, someone can set a higher firealtitude on their AAD and "surprise" the load on the decent.
But again no pilot should fly that way with a full load in my opinion.

I think beeing professional about your own AAD is better than knowing little about all.


(This post was edited by Hellis on Nov 3, 2013, 11:47 PM)


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 4, 2013, 12:29 AM
Post #7 of 26 (2874 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two entirely different questions which are relevant here:

How to handle "STUDENT" mode AADs vs. How to handle modes "OTHER THAN" student.

These are quotes from the Cypres2 manual:

"If a jump plane is descending with students still on board, switch the Student CYPRES off before reaching 1500 ft (450 meters) above ground. If this is not possible, the descent rate of the plane must not exceed 1500 ft/min below 1500 feet above ground. Close open doors,"

"8.1 Important notes for jump pilots • A Student, Expert or Speed CYPRES will not work if the aircraft is exited before it reaches 1500 feet (450m) above the airfield takeoff elevation and 1500 feet (450m) above the intended dropzone elevation. In the case of a Tandem CYPRES 3000 feet (900m) has to be reached. • Never descend to an altitude below the airfield takeoff elevation. • If CYPRES has been adjusted to a dropzone elevation above airfield takeoff elevation and the aircraft has climbed above the intended dropzone elevation, it must not descend below the intended dropzone elevation again. • If CYPRES has been adjusted to a drop zone elevation altitude below the airfield takeoff elevation, the aircraft must not descend below the intended dropzone elevation. A simply rule: Never descend below the elevation of the takeoff airfield or the intended DZ! • When using an aircraft capable of pressurization, make sure that the cabin remains open when the turbines are started up. Leave a window, a door, or the ramp open a bit until after lift-off. It has to be ensured that the cabin pressure cannot build up above the air pressure on the ground. (Hint, skydivers altimeters should never go below „0“.) It is the skydiver‘s responsibility to make sure that jump pilots are informed of these circumstances that will interfere with the proper function of CYPRES. Should a jump pilot be unable to comply with these requirements, or should you discover after a jump that the requirements have not been met, you should switch CYPRES off and on again prior to the next jump. Note that the above conditions will only lead to a low, or no activation - therefore there is no risk of a high activation"

Bottom line for Cypres: Turn off student mode AADs, don't turn off other AADs, pilot should know that jumpers are aboard and fly appropriately.


(This post was edited by GLIDEANGLE on Nov 4, 2013, 2:28 AM)


freakflyer9999  (D 99999)

Nov 4, 2013, 5:36 AM
Post #8 of 26 (2712 views)
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Re: [ChuckMartin] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

ChuckMartin wrote:
Why would you turn them off because you are landing with the plane? I have had to land with it a few times and have never even thought about turning it off and nobody else did either. I don't think a planes decent would ever reach the speeds needed to activate the ADD into thinking its on a skydive or hit the speeds it needs fire an AAD.

Absolutely not true. I watched a whole load of students getting out of a Porter holding their reserve pilot chutes in their hands because the pilot had put the plane into a dive that exceeded the firing parameters of their AADs.

I personally never jumped at that DZ again because of this incident, since the pilot was also the DZO.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:03 AM
Post #9 of 26 (2582 views)
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Re: [ChuckMartin] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Your mileage may vary. If I have the option, and I did, I chose to turn the AAD's off and informed the pilot we had AAD's on board.

Why would turning them off be a bad thing?


frogerina  (Student)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:28 AM
Post #10 of 26 (2545 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a student, with Vigil AAD, I've ridden the plane down twice for winds. First time was my very first jump. Both of us AFF kiddos had our AADs switched off by the instructors. A second time, as winds were sending me back down, I asked my instructor about turning off the AAD. He told me that the pilot has control of the angle/speed of descent of the plane, but if there was an aircraft emergency, this instructor (the head AFFI) wanted us to have every tool available if we needed them. Wonder if Vigil is a slightly different protocol than Cypres, or if it was instructor choice.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:39 AM
Post #11 of 26 (2514 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

jacketsdb23 wrote:
Most of us get very proficient turning our own AAD model's on and off. Even most AFF instructors get very good at turning AAD's on for student gear, but turning it off doesn't happen often.

We had every type of AAD you could imagine on the plane. Some are easier than others to turn off. Learn them all, so you can be prepared to help your buddy who has an AAD that you may not be familiar with.

The three most popular AADs in the US [ Vigil - Cypres - MarS ] all turn on and off the same way.

Four consecutive button pushes.

If you can turn one "On" - you have the ability to turn it "Off".


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:51 AM
Post #12 of 26 (2495 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds easy right?

An Argus is extremely difficult to turn off if you are not very accustomed to doing so.

If you have easy access to the AAD units, I like the idea of having them off during the plane ride down.


Hellis

Nov 4, 2013, 8:57 AM
Post #13 of 26 (2466 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

jacketsdb23 wrote:
Why would turning them off be a bad thing?


Emergency exit?
If you can land with the AAD on, turning it off makes it unsafer in a rare event that you need to exit the airplane during the decent.

mechanical AADs is the only one I would turn off if you had to go down with the plane.
And thats because they are less predictive.

Think of the scenario that you help your friend to turn off the AAD and you would all have to exit the plane, your friend hit the tail....

As I wrote earlier, it is a rare event. But it could happen.
The only reason the AAD (digital) would fire if you need to land with the plane is because the pilot was flying as if he had stolen the plane.


Which of the two scenarios is worse?
Landing with the PC in your hand or exiting a airplane in an emergency with the AAD off?

Your mileage may vary.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Nov 4, 2013, 9:11 AM
Post #14 of 26 (2442 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

jacketsdb23 wrote:
Sounds easy right?

An Argus is extremely difficult to turn off if you are not very accustomed to doing so.

If you have easy access to the AAD units, I like the idea of having them off during the plane ride down.

It is definitely more challenging to remember.

In an effort to create product separation from the rest of the market leaders, companies will often change what is a standard in the industry just to look different.

I travel around the US quite regularly for jumping and have yet to see an Argus in a rig. I know they must be there somewhere so here is the process.

Shut Down Sequence:

The Argus will automatically shut off after 14 hours, or you can do it yourself by the following
procedure:
 Push the button twice.
 Push the button immediately while «SYS OFF» is displayed. (The Argus will start its switch off
procedure after pushing the button three more times in the right sequence). Remember; those
very short pushes must be done immediately after each flash of the display.
 Push the button after the Logo and «ARGUS» flashes.
 Push the push button after the Logo and «ARG» flashes.
 Push the push again after the Logo flashes.
The Argus will now automatically be switched off.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 4, 2013, 9:37 AM
Post #15 of 26 (2409 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll take my chances turning the AAD off. Wink


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 4, 2013, 9:55 AM
Post #16 of 26 (2364 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hellis wrote:
The only reason the AAD (digital) would fire if you need to land with the plane is because the pilot was flying as if he had stolen the plane.

I've been on a number of observation (for photography) flights in porters. You bet I want my aad off when sitting next to an open door camera in hand while the pilot is hauling *** to get back down for the next cycle. Funny/annoying thing was, i was not allowed to walk to the boarding area without a gear check showing a switched-on aad, and the pilot didn't want me in the plane with a switched on aad Crazy Made for a lot of furtive gear-off-gear-ups while hiding behind the plane Sly


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 4, 2013, 10:00 AM
Post #17 of 26 (2344 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember world Team 2006 when the argus was in its testing phase. One of the camera jumpers had an argus stuffed in the lead-pocket on his javelin to log some jumps, as these were of course interesting being high altitude and such.

When after spending too much time at altitude the C-130s were going back down, the call was made to turn off everyone's aad. So said camerajumper fished around in his rig and pulled out the entire argus, cables and all, and started pushing the button while holding the argus in front of him.
Slightly oxygen-deprived jumper next to him: "but... but... that's not the way man!!!" LaughLaughLaugh


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 4, 2013, 5:10 PM
Post #18 of 26 (2123 views)
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Re: [frogerina] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

frogerina wrote:
Wonder if Vigil is a slightly different protocol than Cypres, or if it was instructor choice.

Why "wonder"? It only takes a moment to KNOW:

From Vigil II Manual:

When the user decides to ride down with the aircraft in lieu of jumping, the pilot must be advised of the status of your Vigil® to limit his descent rate according to the mode [less than 45mph (20m/sec) for “STUDENT” and less than 78mph (35m/sec) for “PRO” or “TANDEM”] and set activation altitude (this is especially important for Vigil® programmed in “STUDENT” mode).

In these circumstances we recommend that the Vigil® be switched off, if possible



normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 4, 2013, 5:17 PM
Post #19 of 26 (2116 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Vigil pops. Cypres rocks"

Wasn't that the t-shirt?
Wink


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 4, 2013, 7:28 PM
Post #20 of 26 (2022 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Why worry about ARGUS when they have been grounded by most of the major container manufacturers?


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:47 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2005 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all, and we have many at our DZ.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 5, 2013, 6:47 PM
Post #22 of 26 (1814 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

jacketsdb23 wrote:
Not all, and we have many at our DZ.

....................................................................................

Why?


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:27 PM
Post #23 of 26 (1800 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know, you'd have to ask those that choose to use them :) If the rig manufacturer hasn't said no, why not?


hookitt  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #24 of 26 (1784 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

riggerrob wrote:
jacketsdb23 wrote:
Not all, and we have many at our DZ.

....................................................................................

Why?

Because we do.


hookitt  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:34 PM
Post #25 of 26 (1781 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Learn on/off for every AAD. [In reply to] Can't Post

jacketsdb23 wrote:
I don't know, you'd have to ask those that choose to use them :) If the rig manufacturer hasn't said no, why not?

You're nicer than me Marcel :)

I don't particularly like them but since we have em in the Wings student rigs, we get to keep using them for now.


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