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How to deal with high speed flat spins

 

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mcstain  (A 12623)

Oct 22, 2013, 9:01 PM
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How to deal with high speed flat spins Can't Post

How would you deal with this incident? Bear in mind the g-forces may be so strong that they prevent you from deploying your pilot chute.

http://vimeo.com/77473133


(This post was edited by mcstain on Oct 22, 2013, 9:01 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Oct 22, 2013, 9:19 PM
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Arch.

It's hard to tell from the video if the flat-spinning jumper has something else going on, but that much of a flat spin without a complicating factor like a wingsuit just seems unusual without some other factor like being incapacitated in some way. I'm sure some AFFIs will chime in talking about some of their "spinners" but one would think that a jumper who's cleared to do a 4-way freefly jump has proven himself/herself able to fly stable, so I really wonder if there's something else up here, like the jumper got clocked in the head when the thing funneled.


ChuckMartin  (D License)

Oct 22, 2013, 9:55 PM
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Arch, track, ball up, pitch. All four could work depending on how bad the spin is.


feuergnom  (D License)

Oct 22, 2013, 10:03 PM
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Re: [ChuckMartin] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

since this was an experienced jumper use the TI's sidespin recovery --> get on your back and track out of it.


thevasc21

Oct 24, 2013, 9:38 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

To provide some insight, the jumper in the flat spin has around 100 jumps, pitched somewhere from 1500-2000 that I know of. The jumper didn't pass out, but could not stop the spin as the video shows. the other two jumpers are newly A-Licensed from what I know. Not sure who flew cam.

It's in my opinion the jump was probably above the skill of the jumpers mostly. Looks like the jumper came close to being a statistic.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 24, 2013, 10:05 AM
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Re: [thevasc21] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

thevasc21 wrote:
To provide some insight, the jumper in the flat spin has around 100 jumps, pitched somewhere from 1500-2000 that I know of. The jumper didn't pass out, but could not stop the spin as the video shows. the other two jumpers are newly A-Licensed from what I know. Not sure who flew cam.

It's in my opinion the jump was probably above the skill of the jumpers mostly. Looks like the jumper came close to being a statistic.

Unbelievable.

I would expect a student to know how to deal with that situation after 5 or 6 freefalls. This guy needs to take up bowling, after giving whoever failed to train him in the basics a swift uppercut.


ChrisD  (No License)

Oct 24, 2013, 10:09 AM
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

mcstain wrote:
How would you deal with this incident? Bear in mind the g-forces may be so strong that they prevent you from deploying your pilot chute.

http://vimeo.com/77473133

I'm going to say that the G forces never get that strong that you can't deploy. After more than a few board jumps back in the day and with more than a few intentional turns as fast as you can possibly make them...and graying out.... What can and does happen is the throw up factor. Never mind the disorientation that persists well after you stop.

It almost looks as though in the biginining that some of this was intentional and then something happened. Most rag dolls, when they forget everything tend to just tumble. You really have to hold a position for this to happen. Gives new meaning to start coast stop doesn't it?

Are you asking what to do if something like this happens to the individual as compared with what an AFF instructor would have done? Because I doubt that any AFF instructor would ever find themselves in this position.

Like I said it appears the individual in question is holding some position, perhaps they are having a seizure, other than that just relax, you got yourself into this so get yourself out of it....

I'm going to say it again,...: for this kind of rotation you have to hold it.

C

How recent is this? It's at the Ranch in NY, and it's the 208, but, was this this year???


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Oct 24, 2013, 10:40 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Oct 24, 2013, 1:54 PM
Post #8 of 63 (4626 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm going to say that the G forces never get that strong that you can't deploy.

And I'm going to say that you'd be incorrect.
And yes, AFF instructors will (on occasion) find themselves faced with a helicoptering student.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 24, 2013, 2:53 PM
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Great. Yet another set of KNUCKLEHEADS precipitating the whuffo sensationalizing of an event even they themselves, have NO CLUE how supremely KNUCKLEHEADED they ALL (3, or 4 of them ...if you want to include "Jerry" or Jerome Newman - or whomever... the "videographer" for this) were. Unsure

As also NOW BEING SEEN on the RIGHT THIS MINUTE Television Show. Crazy


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 24, 2013, 2:55 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Oct 24, 2013, 10:44 PM
Post #10 of 63 (4343 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Scrumpot wrote:
Great. Yet another set of KNUCKLEHEADS precipitating the whuffo sensationalizing of an event even they themselves, have NO CLUE how supremely KNUCKLEHEADED they ALL (3, or 4 of them ...if you want to include "Jerry" or Jerome Newman - or whomever... the "videographer" for this) were. Unsure

As also NOW BEING SEEN on the RIGHT THIS MINUTE Television Show. Crazy

Are there 100 jumps between the three/four of them?


mcstain  (A 12623)

Oct 24, 2013, 11:03 PM
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Re: [obelixtim] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

obelixtim wrote:
Unbelievable.

I would expect a student to know how to deal with that situation after 5 or 6 freefalls. This guy needs to take up bowling, after giving whoever failed to train him in the basics a swift uppercut.

I have 7 freefalls, and I'm not sure exactly how I would deal with it. Perhaps I should take up bowling too. There is a lot to remember when learning to skydive. Better have a chat with my instructors at the DZ tomorrow!


mcstain  (A 12623)

Oct 24, 2013, 11:05 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
mcstain wrote:
How would you deal with this incident? Bear in mind the g-forces may be so strong that they prevent you from deploying your pilot chute.

http://vimeo.com/77473133

Are you asking what to do if something like this happens to the individual as compared with what an AFF instructor would have done? Because I doubt that any AFF instructor would ever find themselves in this position.

How recent is this? It's at the Ranch in NY, and it's the 208, but, was this this year???

I'm asking out of curiosity because I wasn't sure how I would have dealt with it. I'm still a student and wasn't sure if there was a "known-best" way of dealing with this or whether people would have different approaches.

I'm not sure how old the video is.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Oct 24, 2013, 11:51 PM
Post #13 of 63 (4308 views)
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

mcstain wrote:

I have 7 freefalls, and I'm not sure exactly how I would deal with it. Perhaps I should take up bowling too. There is a lot to remember when learning to skydive. Better have a chat with my instructors at the DZ tomorrow!

Indeed. You might ask why you have not yet been taught how to deal with instability, or to stop a spin. If the answer isn't confident and straightforward, you might seek a different dropzone.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 25, 2013, 4:38 AM
Post #14 of 63 (4204 views)
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

mcstain wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Unbelievable.

I would expect a student to know how to deal with that situation after 5 or 6 freefalls. This guy needs to take up bowling, after giving whoever failed to train him in the basics a swift uppercut.

I have 7 freefalls, and I'm not sure exactly how I would deal with it. Perhaps I should take up bowling too. There is a lot to remember when learning to skydive. Better have a chat with my instructors at the DZ tomorrow!

Apparently this guy has 100 jumps. Thats why he should be bowling. My students were taught on their 4th or 5th freefall how to delta out of instability.

Best you ask your instructors when they are going to get around to showing you how to deal with it. Because its something you need to know, early in your FF career.


mcstain  (A 12623)

Oct 25, 2013, 5:09 AM
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Re: [DSE] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure it has been covered with me over the course of my jumps, but obviously I need some reminding. As I said, there's a lot of information to take in. I'm glad I came across this video though, it's a reminder that quite often you don't know what you don't know.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 25, 2013, 6:53 AM
Post #16 of 63 (4078 views)
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

mcstain wrote:
I'm pretty sure it has been covered with me over the course of my jumps, but obviously I need some reminding. As I said, there's a lot of information to take in. I'm glad I came across this video though, it's a reminder that quite often you don't know what you don't know.

This is basic stuff. It should be ingrained, part of your DNA as a skydiver, as soon as you are solo in FF for more than 10 second delays.. You should not need "reminding".

Your words give me a very poor impression of whoever it is that is instructing you. And I'm using "instructing" in the loosest term possible.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 25, 2013, 7:04 AM
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Re: [Scrumpot] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Scrumpot wrote:
Great. Yet another set of KNUCKLEHEADS precipitating the whuffo sensationalizing of an event even they themselves, have NO CLUE how supremely KNUCKLEHEADED they ALL (3, or 4 of them ...if you want to include "Jerry" or Jerome Newman - or whomever... the "videographer" for this) were. Unsure

As also NOW BEING SEEN on the RIGHT THIS MINUTE Television Show. Crazy

I think you can extend the KNUCKLEHEAD status to the morons who failed to train these people in the first place, and then turned them loose on the skydiving community, to endanger not just themselves, but others as well.

WTF is going on?. Who is allowing these incompetants who call themselves Instructors the licence to take money for training, and turn out such incompetance. Instruction and training seems to be seriously deficient.

This problem needs to be addressed seriously, otherwise there are going to be a lot more impact craters in the days and years to come.

I've said before that the failure to ensure high quality Instruction and Instructors across the board is going to come back and bite our community on the arse.

Its up to all of us to ensure the highest standards are reached and maintained across the board, and to loudly question things when we see those standards are not being reached.

Poor instruction is a serious, and growing issue IMO.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 25, 2013, 9:05 AM
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How would you deal with this incident?

@ mcstain... Good question! Aside from some of the above rants, the easy answer (to you the student) is to "ARCH". If ever in trouble like this, arch. As stated above, there are other techniques you can try (delta), but, I tell students that most can be fixed with a good hard arch. Smile This is one of the first things you should be taught. Cool


ChrisD  (No License)

Oct 25, 2013, 9:59 AM
Post #19 of 63 (3967 views)
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Re: [DSE] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:
Quote:
I'm going to say that the G forces never get that strong that you can't deploy.

And I'm going to say that you'd be incorrect.
And yes, AFF instructors will (on occasion) find themselves faced with a helicoptering student.


I do not dispute in any way that AffI's need to stop spins from time to time. All I'm saying is that based upon this vid, the speed of the tumbling rotation is considerabley faster than a flailing student. Of course there are exceptions and everyone has a story that they "know one time," of....


Do you have any advice for the student that asked the question? Because all yo have done at this point is express doubt regarding the competency of his particular AFFI. Telling every student who has a question to refere back to there AFFI is the same as saying nothing. And to tell a student otherwise by inferring that they need to change dropzones is in fact saying something about this particular vid and implying something that you have no basis or information to say in the first place. So in fact you have answered in some kind of paranoia fashion. On one hand you make a statement about learning without any information. And then immediately make another statement, obviously with some kind of "worldly knowledge" about the DZ??

I asked if anyone from the Ranch wants to comment about this and to date we don't have any answere. I asked this because the Ranch has some fine instructors. It is one of the premiere DZ's in New England, along with SNE, Orange, And Pepperell, my apologies to those other places like Danielson, and CPI....and the other small places that I have forgotten about. Apparently based upon this advice you will be getting some new students Cause the Ranch doesn't know what they are doing???SmileSmileSmile

Because you can clearly see the person of interest in this vid change his position numerous times,...I saw everything but:.... a steady arch.

To answere his question:


RELAX, ARCH,

The spin will stop, again you have to be doing something to create this....


(And a special note to every skydiver out there, avoid all turns because you could easily get into the "spin of death" that takes the lives of countless skydivers every year, you can clearly see how arms and legs are held outward by centripetal force that is beyond your control....) Thousands die each year....CrazyCrazyCrazy Obliv-vioulsy the last sentence is fiction....


Now if your speaking about hanging yourself off the end of a postage stamp at the mercy of some malignant canopy that has gone rogue,... but he didn't ask that did he...

C


dwhenline

Oct 25, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #20 of 63 (3953 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont know who that skydiver is but I can tell you the location is the Blue Sky Ranch in Gardiner. Spin looked reallly frightening. Also looked like fall weather.
dwh


ChrisD  (No License)

Oct 25, 2013, 10:05 AM
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Re: [dwhenline] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

Just wanted to find out when this happened and perhaps get the rest of the story....???

C


Begs the question of if this is an incident worth persuing??

Is there anything to be learned from this??

If his canopy was trashed, was it the reserve?

Is this more of a student trying to stay freeflying to avoid a collision??? I mean that's what these freeflyers are being taught Right? Stay with the group???

And in their attempts to stay vertical they lost awareness and opened way past opening speed?

C

I mean other than that, what could have blown the canopy, ???


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Oct 25, 2013, 10:22 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 25, 2013, 10:16 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

skyjumpenfool wrote:
In reply to:
How would you deal with this incident?

@ mcstain... Good question! Aside from some of the above rants, the easy answer (to you the student) is to "ARCH". If ever in trouble like this, arch. As stated above, there are other techniques you can try (delta), but, I tell students that most can be fixed with a good hard arch. Smile This is one of the first things you should be taught. Cool

As long as your arms and legs are symettrical, this will work. However it is easy to have an arm or leg at an odd angle which can keep the spin going. The term "hard arch" can cause problems because some people associate that with a rigid position, not only of the spine, but of the arms and legs as well, which can be counter productive.

To be clear, the spine should be arched, but the arms and legs should be relaxed and blown into position rather like hair blowing in the wind.

To my mind the delta is the best recovery position of the lot, for any form of FF instability. It works quickly and effectively, and should be in every jumpers reportoire.

The delta is always the first thing I teach when a student has their arch and altitude awareness sorted out. Then come turns, front and backloops etc......

Its beyond my comprehension that someone with 100 jumps cannot recover from a spin as is shown in the OP. Thats why I'm pointing a finger at the quality of instruction, whichever DZ it was.


ChrisD  (No License)

Oct 25, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #23 of 63 (3891 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

The quality of instruction ends at around jump number 25. At no point is the Delta mentioned in the IRM or the SIM. If it is could you please post the relevant section??? (In any student section.)

Odd angles were supposed to be instilled in student's minds well before they progress, and certainly demonstrated before they are released for self supervision.

I see no hard arch in any of this vid. I see feet , legs, and arms all over the place....

If in fact this person has about 100 jumps, then they best get some basic refresher jumps in, if in fact they can't recover from a basic instability.

We don't teach Delta or tracking in CAT A or any of the CAT jumps. (AS the preferred stability recovery method.)

Here is the recovery that is taught:

Quote:
2. Recovering from exit and freefall instability--


a. Altitude, arch, legs, relax (review).

b. If falling stable back to earth although arching, briefly retract one arm and look over that shoulder at the ground to return face-to earth (half barrel roll).

3. Barrel rolls, backloops, and front loops (instructor's preferred technique)


a. Try barrel rolls first, because they have a built-in recovery component from back-to-earth.

b. Any two disorienting maneuvers with recovery and reorientation within five seconds qualify you for self-supervision in freefall (the same one may be used twice).

c. Demonstrate full control by completing all three maneuvers within 60 degrees of the initial heading.


From CAT E.

So I'm having a bit of an issue when I hear so many want to teach something that isn't in the SIM. All though I'm not arguing with ya, do whatever works and perhaps spend some jumps practicing this. But please start with going back to basic instability and recovery as outlined in the SIM. I agree completely, if that was in fact some attempt at recovery, then they need some help....

Otherwise you are on your own?

C

Cause after jump number 25 just where and when do you do this instruction? And just how, does this reflect back upon the instructor after they have demonstrated stability after 5 seconds?


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Oct 25, 2013, 10:55 AM)


-ftp-

Oct 25, 2013, 11:25 AM
Post #24 of 63 (3839 views)
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy didnt arch for jack shit is the problem.

also the guy flying camera needs some reminding to look around after he deploys to watch out for other canopies.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 25, 2013, 12:07 PM
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Re: [mcstain] How to deal with high speed flat spins [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Better have a chat with my instructors at the DZ tomorrow!

There you go! Well then, at least with this, and as a result of your posting here now (and seeing - even if not fully understanding - which in of itself is understandable) - you have learned something! Wink


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 25, 2013, 12:55 PM)


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