Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Are tight fits bad?

 


Kalrigan  (B License)

Oct 20, 2013, 8:18 AM
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Are tight fits bad? Can't Post

I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?


(This post was edited by Kalrigan on Oct 20, 2013, 8:30 AM)


mattjw916  (D License)

Oct 20, 2013, 8:50 AM
Post #2 of 19 (3437 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

You won't enjoy packing a new "tight" main into a container with a "tight" reserve + an AAD.

Can you do it? Generally, yes if you are a skilled packer, live in a humid place, and your main is well-worn.

Otherwise prepare for yourself for frustration, excessive use of profanity, and paying to have someone pack for you.


Kalrigan  (B License)

Oct 20, 2013, 9:07 AM
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Re: [mattjw916] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 20, 2013, 9:21 AM
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kalrigan wrote:
So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).


mattjw916  (D License)

Oct 20, 2013, 9:28 AM
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Re: [dragon2] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

seconded...


Kalrigan  (B License)

Oct 20, 2013, 9:29 AM
Post #6 of 19 (3362 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

dragon2 wrote:
Kalrigan wrote:
So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

Oh no you misunderstood me, I'm not going that way. I'm just learning and trying to understand how these things work and what's the better way to approach things. I'm shopping for rigs and this was something that caught my attention that I realized I don't completely understand so I figured I would ask.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Oct 20, 2013, 11:26 AM
Post #7 of 19 (3224 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

dragon2 wrote:
Kalrigan wrote:
So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

+3


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 20, 2013, 5:49 PM
Post #8 of 19 (2974 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll go +4 on the advice, but assume that you're just out there looking at used rigs and seeing what's available.

If you're searching, you're best off doing a search on the main size that you're looking for. Don't search for a size down, because then you'll just jump it (you know you will Tongue).

Wendy P.


catyduck  (A License)

Oct 20, 2013, 7:48 PM
Post #9 of 19 (2854 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I get what you're asking. To use the example given:

An Icon I4 is a tight or full fit with a 150 Smart reserve and a 150 9-cell main, says Aerodyne.

SO if your already-chosen combination of canopies is a Smart 150 and, say, a Sabre2 150, would you be better off choosing an I5 (or another manufacturer)?

If you had chosen a similarly-sized reserve that packs a bit smaller (Tempo 150, PD143), would it make the fit in the I4 less tight/safer?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 20, 2013, 8:52 PM
Post #10 of 19 (2784 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

dragon2 wrote:
Kalrigan wrote:
So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

..............................................................................

Paying a Master Rigger $50 per hour to repair distorted grommets, cracked stiffeners, torn flaps, closing pins bent in weird and wonderful directions, etc. .......


catyduck  (A License)

Oct 21, 2013, 5:13 AM
Post #11 of 19 (2612 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

dragon2 wrote:
Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

riggerrob wrote:
Paying a Master Rigger $50 per hour to repair distorted grommets, cracked stiffeners, torn flaps, closing pins bent in weird and wonderful directions, etc. .......

Are these problems linked to overstuffed containers, i.e., BEYOND the manufacturers' specifications? Or could they result from prolonged use with a "tight"-fitting main and/or "tight" reserve?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 21, 2013, 5:35 AM
Post #12 of 19 (2597 views)
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Re: [catyduck] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cracked stiffeners can definitely result from containers that aren't overstuffed. I've had to replace a stiffener, and mine is never overstuffed.

One thing to consider is that a somewhat full container is far more difficult for a novice packer to pack, than it is for an experienced packer. Technique makes a big difference. And while a professional packer has technique, an owner will nearly always take more care with their own gear.

Difficulties in container opening I haven't experienced, but there are threads out there about that.

Wendy P.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Oct 21, 2013, 5:36 AM)


FataMorgana  (C License)

Oct 21, 2013, 6:49 AM
Post #13 of 19 (2498 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

My take on this would be along the following lines.
Almost any process design by human mind ( incudind oppening
of the container) operates based on a specific combination of so called operating parameters (be it the length of the closing loop, fullness of the main or reserve tray to mention the most obvious ones). Typically there are interactions between parameters involved in the execution of the process and their optimal operating ranges. One would assume that manufacturers would test ranges acceptable for all crucial parameters.
It is not certain however that all interactions between parameters involved in the process have been identified and therefore thoroughly
tested. Hence, in my opinion, the general recommendations within no
specifics on how to proceed outside of the optimal ranges.
Why would anyone want to operate the life saving device
outside of its optimum operating ranges? Because money wise it makes
more sense to cover 2-3 sizes of the main with one container.
This is not a sensible answer in my book Smile.


Kalrigan  (B License)

Oct 21, 2013, 7:00 AM
Post #14 of 19 (2480 views)
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Re: [catyduck] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

catyduck wrote:
I think I get what you're asking. To use the example given:

An Icon I4 is a tight or full fit with a 150 Smart reserve and a 150 9-cell main, says Aerodyne.

SO if your already-chosen combination of canopies is a Smart 150 and, say, a Sabre2 150, would you be better off choosing an I5 (or another manufacturer)?

If you had chosen a similarly-sized reserve that packs a bit smaller (Tempo 150, PD143), would it make the fit in the I4 less tight/safer?

Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 21, 2013, 7:28 AM
Post #15 of 19 (2442 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct?

No. Just to be clear, the correct answer is to go with a larger container. Your container size does not effect your safety when it comes to landing your parachute, but your canopy size certainly does. Based on that, safe canopy sizing is choice one, and everything else comes after.

In terms of 'tight' fits, my question would be why would you want either one to be 'tight'? It makes the rig harder (aka less comfortable) and harder to pack for your and your rigger.

There has also been some speculation that too tight of a container has led to reserve PC hesitations or other deployment problems. Some of the incidents where an AAD has fired but the canopy did not deploy in time have been on rigs with tight fitting main/reserve canopies.


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Oct 21, 2013, 7:47 AM
Post #16 of 19 (2407 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?

Yes, it is "ok" to do this. It is what most people do when ordering new gear these days. And most container manufacturers will recommend this combo if you ask them. Generally when they call it "full" that is your warning not to go any larger.


If you are a new packer and you have a new main canopy to pack into it you will wish you had a larger container. I've seen many people in this situation just give up and hire a packer, at least until the canopy is broken in. If possible give yourself a break and avoid the "full" container. But it is not unsafe to fill it to the top end of the recommendation. If in doubt consult Aerodyne.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Oct 24, 2013, 2:48 PM
Post #17 of 19 (1861 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kalrigan wrote:
I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?

It depends on your goals.

A rig which packs softer is more comfortable in the plane.

A rig which packs tight is as small and therefore fashionable as possible, where the ideal is something the size of a kindergartner's backpack.

A rig with a tight main compartment should be more tolerable of down-sizing; although if you're buying used gear that doesn't matter because you can spend about the same on depreciation regardless of how many mains and containers you go through.

A rig which is more accommodating takes less skill to get the main into its deployment bag.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Oct 24, 2013, 2:49 PM)


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Oct 24, 2013, 6:22 PM
Post #18 of 19 (1745 views)
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Re: [Kalrigan] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kalrigan wrote:
I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?



My wife has an I-4 brand new and a hornet 150 in it right this second, but about to put a safire2-139 in it. The 150 fits fine. its older so easy to pack now and it has room to spare. I could sqeeze a 160 in it no problem. I currently have an I-5 with a safire2 159 in it and it wont take anything smaller and not have too much wiggle room. I can almost line up the grommets without threading the closing loop. Hope this helps on sizing for the real world, not a chart. My canopy has 40 jumps on it by the way.


Kalrigan  (B License)

Oct 25, 2013, 7:50 AM
Post #19 of 19 (1549 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Are tight fits bad? [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome, thanks for the information guys.

Alexg3265 wrote:
Kalrigan wrote:
I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?



My wife has an I-4 brand new and a hornet 150 in it right this second, but about to put a safire2-139 in it. The 150 fits fine. its older so easy to pack now and it has room to spare. I could sqeeze a 160 in it no problem. I currently have an I-5 with a safire2 159 in it and it wont take anything smaller and not have too much wiggle room. I can almost line up the grommets without threading the closing loop. Hope this helps on sizing for the real world, not a chart. My canopy has 40 jumps on it by the way.

Interesting. What kind and size of reserve does your wife fly?



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