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Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve???

 

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NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Oct 6, 2013, 9:15 AM
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Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? Can't Post

What would you do and why?
At 4K from a hop n pop,
At 3K from a 4 way break off
At 2K when you waited too long to do something...

Thanks!


shropshire  (C License)

Oct 6, 2013, 9:42 AM
Post #2 of 43 (5720 views)
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Like to think that I'd go straight to Silver .. but have a feeling that old engrained EPs would kick in and I'd end up pulling both (in sequence!!)


monkycndo  (D License)

Oct 6, 2013, 10:35 AM
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

This topic has been discussed many, many times. Both are right or wrong, depending.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 6, 2013, 11:55 AM
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a pc in tow a (fairly large) number of years ago. Actually, I had a couple (a bad idea I was trying out). I just dumped my reserve and had no problems.

But either cutting away or not cutting away can be wrong, depending on the very specific circumstances. Best to try not to have one.

If I'm low, I'm hoping I'd be smart enough to just dump my reserve regardless; cutting away does take time.

Wendy P.


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Oct 6, 2013, 2:39 PM
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been taught and I teach to always cut away, however when I had troubles with my main PC I didn't cut away and things didn't go very well.

On the jump I was watching a student practice tracking. I had set my alarms to 4k, 3k and 2k feet and the student just happened to pull at the 4k beep. I turned away thinking I'll do a little track, however thinking that I shouldn't go too low. Some time after the 3k beep went off I did a really lazy pull from full track, without ever going to box man. I believe the main PC to stuck in my burble somewhere over my ass.

Very quickly I realized something is not right i.e. no pull from PC, no main container opening, nothing. So I look back and see nothing. Reach around to my BOC thinking the PC must've gotten stuck and its empty. Also the main container was still closed. As I was reaching around I could feel something touch my arm, which I think was the PC bridle but I really couldn't grab anything. At this point I just mentally gave up on my main PC, since I couldn't reach and couldn't see it. And around that same time I just got this though into my head that I really need some fabric above my head and pretty much instinctively I pulled my reserve handle.

For some reason I expected that a terminal reserve opening would pretty much give an instant canopy so when nothing happened instantly I ended up looking behind again too see whats going and then I saw my reserve PC pop up.

The weirdest part about that whole sequence was that I could've sworn it lasted tens of seconds but on the video the whole thing happens just few seconds. In fact after landing my first reaction watching the video was that I was too hasty in doing what I did but it didn't really matter at that point anymore.

After my reserve opened up I just kind of immediately realized that I was going to have two out so I looked behind me and sure enough I could see my main inflating.

Cutting away my main never seemed like a good idea mainly because I was worried about it entangling with my reserve and also the canopies were flying side by side and again I've been taught and I teach not to cut away in that situation.

I tried controlling the canopies for a while as I wanted to get to a better landing area and avoid landing into a forest however every time I tried controlling either of the canopies it felt like the whole setup will end up down planing which was my main concern. I didn't realized it in the moment, but afterwards it seemed very obvious that if you have two canopies and you give riser input on only one of them, the other will fly straight and the other will dive away making it seem like they're going to downplane. The whole time as I was under canopy I kept fucking around with the canopies even though I was freaking about ending up with a downplane at a really low altitude. However after my gopro snagged on my reserve toggles twice ( around 1:20 and 1:44 on the video) I finally gave up on trying to control the setup and just let it fly where ever it wanted to go. Luckily I ended up in some nice soft forest and I only got some green from the leaves on the canopies.

You can see the video here.


grue  (D License)

Oct 6, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #6 of 43 (5319 views)
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

NoShitThereIWas wrote:
What would you do and why?
At 4K from a hop n pop,
At 3K from a 4 way break off
At 2K when you waited too long to do something...

Thanks!

If I had the altitude I'd try and pull the pin by hand before going to my EPs. If that didn't work:

If I've thrown a PC, as a general rule I'm pulling my cutaway handle before I go silver.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 7, 2013, 7:58 AM
Post #7 of 43 (4841 views)
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Straight to reserve. If you are high enough you can deal with whatever happens. If you are too low, that second you took cutting away may have been the extra second you needed to have a survivable landing.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 7, 2013, 4:16 PM)


zoobrothertom  (D 9397)

Oct 7, 2013, 8:17 AM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

CSpenceFLY wrote:
Straight to cutaway. If you are high enough you can deal with whatever happens. If you are too low, that second you took cutting away may have been the extra second you needed to have a survivable landing.

Here's comes the part Monkycndo warned about! Wink


(This post was edited by zoobrothertom on Oct 7, 2013, 8:18 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 7, 2013, 10:06 AM
Post #9 of 43 (4653 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Straight to cutaway. If you are high enough you can deal with whatever happens.
>If you are too low, that second you took cutting away may have been the extra
>second you needed to have a survivable landing.

Did you mean "straight to reserve?"


topdocker  (D 12018)

Oct 7, 2013, 11:20 AM
Post #10 of 43 (4580 views)
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Re: [billvon] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Straight to reserve for me. Then while flying the reserve back, wonder how in the hell I got a PC in tow on a pull out!

top


shropshire  (C License)

Oct 7, 2013, 11:47 AM
Post #11 of 43 (4537 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

topdocker wrote:
Straight to reserve for me. Then while flying the reserve back, wonder how in the hell I got a PC in tow on a pull out!

top

LaughLaughLaugh


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 7, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #12 of 43 (4523 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

topdocker wrote:
Straight to reserve for me. Then while flying the reserve back, wonder how in the hell I got a PC in tow on a pull out!

top

A skydiver on our DZ had that hapen once, so yeah, a PCIT on a pullout can happen Wink


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 7, 2013, 2:12 PM
Post #13 of 43 (4446 views)
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Re: [billvon] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>Straight to cutaway. If you are high enough you can deal with whatever happens.
>If you are too low, that second you took cutting away may have been the extra
>second you needed to have a survivable landing.

Did you mean "straight to reserve?"

Ooops, sure did. Hadn't had my second glass of coke yet. Feel free to edit if you like.


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Oct 7, 2013, 2:56 PM
Post #14 of 43 (4403 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for asking the question and clarifying but I got that is what you meant. If you don't cut away the main (meaning you have enough time to do that first) aren't you worried about the main pin coming out and then the main inflating and/or even entangling with a part of your body leading to a horseshoe or an entanglement with the reserve as opposed to being able to fly away from it after it releases from your three rings? Would the main fly away from you if you cut it away before it reaches line stretch? Anyone ever had this happen?


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Oct 8, 2013, 3:39 AM
Post #15 of 43 (4191 views)
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

You mean something like this?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 8, 2013, 5:58 AM
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you don't cut away the main (meaning you have enough time to do that first) aren't you worried about the main pin coming out and then the main inflating and/or even entangling with a part of your body leading to a horseshoe or an entanglement with the reserve as opposed to being able to fly away from it

You're assuming that you can 'fly away from it'. You have no control over how or when the main could leave if you pull the cutaway handle first. It could be at the worst possible time, and in the worst possible way.

If you go to the reserve first, you retain control over when the main will depart. It may or may not deploy at all, but if it does, at least you can control if it stays or goes.

Keep in mind that dual deployments happen, and that's why we have procedures for the various incarnations of two-outs.

So if you cutaway first -

You lose control of the main. If it deploys and releases and tangles with the reserve, you have one option, that being to keep fighting for control until you hit the ground.

If you go reserve first-

You keep control of the main, and if it deploys alongside the reserve, you have a variety of outcomes - it could biplane, side-by-side, or down plane, at which point you have a proven course of action to follow. It might entangle with the reserve, at which point you revert to fighting for control until you hit the ground.

As you can see, the second scenario provides you with more possible outcomes, and all of them are better than the possibility in the first scenario.

(Note that I'm leaving out the idea of the main staying put or it leaving cleanly if you cutaway first. Both of those are 'best case scenarios', and that's not what you plan for when dealing with an emergency situation)


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Oct 8, 2013, 6:58 AM
Post #17 of 43 (4043 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool, that is really the answer I think I was looking for. I think I will change my EPs to reflect scenario #2. I was always taught if you deploy any part of the main canopy and have a mal, cut away first then go to reserve. It wasn't until recently that I got into a debate with a friend and he mentioned some other scenarios like the you stated above. I am glad I asked the questions. Thanks Dave.


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Oct 8, 2013, 7:02 AM
Post #18 of 43 (4032 views)
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Re: [Arvoitus] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

OMG Arvoitus yes! Was that you???? If so, OMG! That is exactly what I was talking about. Thank you for sharing your video. All I can say is OMG! I would have had to bleeped out my cuss words as well. Way to hold it together and keep fighting till you hit the ground. How hard did you hit??? It was you who posted above! Thank you for sharing your story. Very good to share that insight and experience with others. Who knows, maybe one day it can save someone else's life, even mine! Thanks!


(This post was edited by NoShitThereIWas on Oct 8, 2013, 7:03 AM)


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Oct 8, 2013, 10:30 AM
Post #19 of 43 (3890 views)
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on which video you're referring to. The first video with the two out is me, the second video with the main/reserve craziness is not me.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Oct 8, 2013, 4:51 PM
Post #20 of 43 (3742 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

dragon2 wrote:
topdocker wrote:
Straight to reserve for me. Then while flying the reserve back, wonder how in the hell I got a PC in tow on a pull out!

top

A skydiver on our DZ had that hapen once, so yeah, a PCIT on a pullout can happen Wink

Towed the PC with the container opened- my bet is uncocked PC. I bet you can feel it when you pull the PC into the airstream.... nothing there!

top


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 9, 2013, 11:01 AM
Post #21 of 43 (3525 views)
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Re: [NoShitThereIWas] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

NoShitThereIWas wrote:
What would you do and why?
At 4K from a hop n pop,
At 3K from a 4 way break off
At 2K when you waited too long to do something...

Thanks!

If your pilot chute has left the pocket then it's a partial malfunction and you should execute emergency procedures as such.

chuck


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Oct 9, 2013, 11:25 AM
Post #22 of 43 (3500 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

So you would cutaway first???


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 9, 2013, 4:04 PM
Post #23 of 43 (3345 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.vimeo.com/68934659Food for thought on this topic.


(This post was edited by DSE on Oct 9, 2013, 9:40 PM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 9, 2013, 8:44 PM
Post #24 of 43 (3284 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points, Dave, and it's how we do it in our family. At my DZ, though, I'm required by management to teach "chop, then reserve."

On another internet forum I had an instructor with half the jumps and time in sport as me trying to shred me for stating there were 2 valid ways to handle it. He insisted that not cutting away first was tantamount to suicide. LaughLaugh He went away after I told him to go read the SIM. It says both ways too.

It's an endless debate, but I agree with you. Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 10, 2013, 4:01 AM
Post #25 of 43 (3158 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At my DZ, though, I'm required by management to teach "chop, then reserve."

Mine too, but I support the requirement when it comes to students.

The trouble with this malfunction is that there is no way to know upon identification how/why your PC is towing, and what it's going to do when the reserve deploys and loosens up the main pack tray. Depending on those factors, each method has it's merits.

So now that either choice can be considered 'valid', you have to look for other factors to choose which one to use. In the case of students, and the high speed nature of the PC in tow, I do feel like the better choice is to cutaway first. Yes, it takes more time than just pulling silver in terms of physical movements, but it's the mental side of things that lead me to believe that it's the better choice for a student.

In a malfunction scenario, the jumper has to identify, decide, and act, in dealing with the mal. In the case of one set of EPs, that being cutaway/reserve, the decide part is limited to EPs/not-EPs. Maybe it's a minor mal, or for some other reason the student chooses not to perform EPs, but in any case it's a single decision.

If you introduce the idea that 'some' mals don't require a cutaway, now the 'decide' part becomes a two-step process. First you're asking a student to make a 'judgment call' as to the condition of their canopy, and next you're asking them to make a much subtler distinction between some mals that require a cutaway and some that don't. While it's easy to quantify the amount of time a person would take to physically reach down and pull the cutaway handle (that being the extra time needed to cutaway when it might not be needed) and compare that to the time it would take to add extra 'thinking' in a high-stress situation, the possible indecision or doubt on the part of the student possibly represents a much bigger chunk of time (which the student does not have).

Given that students can be taught to 'always' do the full EPs as long as they're above 1k ft, it becomes a 'catch all', and a single solution to every problem they might encounter (every one that requires a reserve). The only exception to that rule is being under 1k ft, by which time they're already under one (or two) canopies in some way, and time is less of an issue as opposed to a PC in tow where it's a huge issue. So you can simplify the decision making process, and the training with just a single set of EPs.

By the time a jumper is able to understand the nuances of the situation thus that they begin to question he procedure itself, they're ready to introduce the additional step to their EPs. In that case, with all of the unknowns involved in a PC in tow, hashing out the possible outcomes does point to leaving the cutaway handle in place until an 'actual' eventuality requires it be pulled, not a 'possible' eventuality.


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