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Front risers - how much do they need to move?

 

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PixieUK  (A License)

Sep 30, 2013, 3:23 AM
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Front risers - how much do they need to move? Can't Post

I posted on another thread about asking at my dz about downsizing from a student Nav 260 to a student Nav 240 and basically got told I should be able to fly my canopy under all wind conditions, land upwind, crosswind, downwind, control it under front and rear risers and only then consider downsizing.

The reason I asked to downsize is that I am currently on a wing loading of about 0.65 (I weigh about 140lbs) and I cannot fly forwards in strong winds (this is student winds, I got my A licence on Saturday and didn't jump again because students were on wind hold - having landed backwards once on a backwards descent from 3000', I'm not in a hurry to repeat the experience!).

On reading more about extending the range of a canopy (from the CH2 manual), it talks about pulling on the front risers which may help with flying into wind. I have tried this a couple of times and haven't actually managed to make any discernible difference to the canopy flight. I am pretty strong but I cannot move the risers more than a couple of centimetres, it's more like I'm doing chin ups than making any impact on the front edge of the parachute. I can manage the rear risers without any problems, though the turns have a different feel to those done with my steering toggles.

So how much do the front risers need to move to make any difference?


Hellis

Sep 30, 2013, 4:23 AM
Post #2 of 33 (5551 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

Different canopies are loaded differently on front/rear risers.

Studentcanopies usually are heavy on the front risers.
And Lightnings are easy to pull down the front risers.
It depends on what use the canopy is intended for, studentcanopies are not very common at the swoopcompetitions.

But any movement should make some diffrence.
Does the front risers have diveloops?


(This post was edited by Hellis on Sep 30, 2013, 4:25 AM)


shropshire  (C License)

Sep 30, 2013, 4:44 AM
Post #3 of 33 (5507 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pulling them down is one thing .. but holding there for any time to make a difference ... is yet another.

Which is why on a paraglider we use our feet and a pulley!!
Attachments: Speedbar.jpg (126 KB)


DHemer  (B License)

Sep 30, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #4 of 33 (5275 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

At that wing loading and on a student canopy your front risers are going to be very hard to pull
On a 235 student canopy I was loaded at 0.8 and pretty much climbed the front risers without much effect
Loaded 1:1 on a pilot i can get it to dive though

Also havng front risers with loops make it much more forgiving on your hands

Noob tip: fly in 1/4 or 1/2 brakes first then imediatly go to front risers, this makes it easier to deform the parachute


yoink

Sep 30, 2013, 9:22 AM
Post #5 of 33 (5122 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

PixieUK wrote:
The reason I asked to downsize is that I am currently on a wing loading of about 0.65 (I weigh about 140lbs) and I cannot fly forwards in strong winds (this is student winds, I got my A licence on Saturday and didn't jump again because students were on wind hold - having landed backwards once on a backwards descent from 3000', I'm not in a hurry to repeat the experience!).


Going backwards isn't so bad, so long as you get out upwind of the dz. In fact, it can be a really useful skill to have.
It's unlikely that you'll be able to make much impact on your headway with the front risers at the moment, so when the winds get up, just sit out and enjoy the day - that's part of skydiving.

If you think you're ready to downsize, tell your CCI that you want to start working on your CH1 & 2 qualifications. Those include a written exam, extending the range of your canopy with risers, emergency turns and making predeclared accuracy landings (landing consistently within 30m of a target while being observed).

Requirements here:
http://www.theparachutecentre.com/grading.stm

I'm prepared to be that once you've worked through those your CCI will not only let you downsize a little, but you'll have a much better knowledge of canopy flight. It's going to take some work - a number of 'working' jumps and some study. Get to it! Wink


PixieUK  (A License)

Sep 30, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #6 of 33 (5086 views)
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Re: [yoink] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
If you think you're ready to downsize, tell your CCI that you want to start working on your CH1 & 2 qualifications. Those include a written exam, extending the range of your canopy with risers, emergency turns and making predeclared accuracy landings (landing consistently within 30m of a target while being observed).

Requirements here:
http://www.theparachutecentre.com/grading.stm

I'm prepared to be that once you've worked through those your CCI will not only let you downsize a little, but you'll have a much better knowledge of canopy flight. It's going to take some work - a number of 'working' jumps and some study. Get to it! Wink

Thanks - I already have my CH1 and it was from reading through the CH2 manual that I came across the front risers suggestion. To be honest, I'm much happier with the thought of working on canopy handling skills to get my CH2 next than I am with what seems to be a UK obsession on getting my FS1 done immediately Smile

It was the pre-declared landings bit that caused me to try to experiment with extending the range of my canopy into wind. In anything other than very light winds, if I take just a little bit too long on my turn into wind (I usually don't bother too much with a crosswind leg, it's a sweeping 180 to avoid being pushed too far downwind), I can miss my target by a loooong way, lol.

I'm still finding it very frustrating just how much the wind speed can vary from 1000' when I start my landing pattern to the actual wind speed down to the ground, which frequently means I think I'm set up for my still point in the perfect place, then by the time I've dropped another couple of hundred feet, I'm either not going to make it far enough forward or I'm pushed too far to the side.


RichM  (D 100226)

Sep 30, 2013, 9:42 AM
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Re: [DHemer] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

DHemer wrote:
Noob tip: fly in 1/4 or 1/2 brakes first then imediatly go to front risers, this makes it easier to deform the parachute

Is true but defeats the objective of trying achieve forward movement over the ground into strong winds. A pull on the brakes will slow the canopy in the air and so increase the backward speed over the ground. The subsequent pull on the front risers while it will cause the canopy to speed up a little if she can deflect it, will not make the ground lost by applying the brakes. I am only talking here about the student canopy loaded at 0.65, other canopies have different characteristics.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 30, 2013, 9:44 AM
Post #8 of 33 (5075 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

PixieUK wrote:
I posted on another thread about asking at my dz about downsizing from a student Nav 260 to a student Nav 240 and basically got told I should be able to fly my canopy under all wind conditions, land upwind, crosswind, downwind, and I cannot fly forwards in strong winds (this is student winds, I got mycontrol it under front and rear risers and only then consider downsizing.

The reason I asked to downsize is that I am currently on a wing loading of about 0.65 (I weigh about 140lbs)

I am pretty strong but I cannot move the risers more than a couple of centimetres,;
Downsizing? Heck, at your weight that would be more like "appropriate sizing." Seriously. If you were at my DZ I'd have you on a 220 at most, maybe a 200. That's still a .95 wing loading, assuming 30 pounds of gear. That's under the limit for an A license and you would probably enjoy it more.

Strength? Can you actually do chinups? Most women do not come into our sport with the upper body strength men do. No matter how good of shape you're in, hitting the weights won't hurt. Smile


Safety thing. . .

Up high you may let go of your toggles and play with your front risers all you like. But if you're ever using front risers close to the ground, such as high winds, make SURE to have all 4 fingers thru the steering handles and only use your index and middle fingers thru the dive loops on the front risers. This way, when you need to let go of the dive loops and flare with the steering toggles, you only straighten your index and middle finger to let go, while retaining a good strong grip on the steering toggles with you ring and pinky fingers.

Many injuries and a few fatalities have happened because of dropped toggles during landing. This technique should lessen the chance of that happening to you. Smile


wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 30, 2013, 9:51 AM
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the days when everyone jumped slow canopies, accuracy jumps (like those required for ratings) were done from lower down, where spotting was more accurate.

I think your decision to focus on canopy handling over freefall is admirable -- after all, you have to steer and land on every jump, not just the ones you choose to.

But to get better accuracy, talk to the old, grizzled guy at your DZ who taught Methuselah how to jump, and he or she can probably help you with spotting and accuracy. What passes for spotting now just isn't the same thing.

Wendy P.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 30, 2013, 10:02 AM
Post #10 of 33 (5023 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
But to get better accuracy, talk to the old, grizzled guy at your DZ who taught Methuselah how to jump, and he or she can probably help you with spotting and accuracy.
That would be me . . . again. Laugh

And yes, I know how to spot. Cool


dthames  (B 37674)

Sep 30, 2013, 10:25 AM
Post #11 of 33 (4989 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am loaded to 0.93 on my Pilot. I have loops on my fronts and I can pull them down maybe 2 inches. But as soon as it picks up any speed, I am doing a chinup and it does not seem like it keeps the speed.

I have a GPS and maybe I will try it again so I can see the GPS data and see my ground speed picks up and holds or not. It is pretty hard for me to hold all of my weight on those loops for very long.

Learning to stay upwind or not jumping when I can't get out upwind is my method of operation now.


yoink

Sep 30, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #12 of 33 (4889 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

PixieUK wrote:
It was the pre-declared landings bit that caused me to try to experiment with extending the range of my canopy into wind. In anything other than very light winds, if I take just a little bit too long on my turn into wind (I usually don't bother too much with a crosswind leg, it's a sweeping 180 to avoid being pushed too far downwind), I can miss my target by a loooong way, lol.

I'm still finding it very frustrating just how much the wind speed can vary from 1000' when I start my landing pattern to the actual wind speed down to the ground, which frequently means I think I'm set up for my still point in the perfect place, then by the time I've dropped another couple of hundred feet, I'm either not going to make it far enough forward or I'm pushed too far to the side.

Accuracy isn't a static plan, you have to adjust depending on what's actually happening in the air and you'll get better at that with practice.

Do however make a plan that includes a proper base (crosswind) leg and try to fly that, everytime. Seriously, it's important that you start getting that habit ingrained now - if you're flying in winds that will push you around, expect that and turn onto your base before you get to your landing spot. By varying the amount you are heading into / cross wind on that leg, you'll be doing a skill called 'crabbing' - flying across the windline while remaining relatively static to your landing area.
Again - ask one of he old grizzled guys at your DZ to explain it to you. It's a really good skill to have.


One of the reasons that it's important to have a proper base leg in your pattern is for predictability. It may not matter too much at the moment when you're floaty and last down, but when you start having people above you, you start to cause ALL sorts of problems by doing more of a 180 approach.


(This post was edited by yoink on Sep 30, 2013, 11:46 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 30, 2013, 12:16 PM
Post #13 of 33 (4820 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

PixieUK wrote:
On reading more about extending the range of a canopy (from the CH2 manual), it talks about pulling on the front risers which may help with flying into wind. I have tried this a couple of times and haven't actually managed to make any discernible difference to the canopy flight

Front risering does increase your forward speed.

But for practical purposes, you may not want to do a chinup on the front risers for a minute or more, when your slow canopy might only gain, who knows, 3 mph on fronts.

That time would be better taken up planning a good approach to the DZ or a good circuit, as appropriate to your canopy's speed.

If you want to front riser for a while for the workout or to see how much extra distance you get, fine. But at your wing loading there isn't much immediate practical use.

About the only time you'll want it is if you got yourself really low over obstacles and can't fly away crosswind or downwind to a better place. If hanging on the front risers to gain a few mph will allow to avoid the tall forest and just barely make it into the clearing, then it is worth it...


Edit: Note that you'll only get extra distance over the ground if facing a strong wind, where the increased forward speed has more of an effect than the increased descent rate. In zero wind, the added descent rate will likely have more of an effect than the forward speed, and your glide ratio down to the ground will likely be worse on front risers.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Sep 30, 2013, 12:21 PM)


jailbot  (B License)

Sep 30, 2013, 6:06 PM
Post #14 of 33 (4635 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have your A License now, you should try to get a hold of gear! I weigh 150 and am happily flying a 170.

As far as the front riser stuff goes, I went through the same thing, with the same exact canopies when I was a student (PD Navs 220-260). Front riser maneuvers with these canopies are crap unless you have the weight to wrestle with them. Don't forget that these are student canopies too, certainly not as agile as their sport counterparts.


yoink

Sep 30, 2013, 6:58 PM
Post #15 of 33 (4589 views)
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Re: [jailbot] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

jailbot wrote:
If you have your A License now, you should try to get a hold of gear! I weigh 150 and am happily flying a 170.

How exactly would that help if the chief instructor wouldn't let her use it?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 30, 2013, 8:09 PM
Post #16 of 33 (4527 views)
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Re: [yoink] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
jailbot wrote:
If you have your A License now, you should try to get a hold of gear! I weigh 150 and am happily flying a 170.

How exactly would that help if the chief instructor wouldn't let her use it?

Depends on one's assumptions.
Instructors instruct & control students. She's apparently not a student any more. So he may be chief of nothing at all when it comes to power over her canopy choices. She can tell him to go stuff himself.

But in practice, you may be right, someone like that probably has other powers at the DZ and may have a say over what people get to jump, for better or for worse...


PixieUK  (A License)

Sep 30, 2013, 10:31 PM
Post #17 of 33 (4462 views)
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Re: [yoink] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
jailbot wrote:
If you have your A License now, you should try to get a hold of gear! I weigh 150 and am happily flying a 170.

How exactly would that help if the chief instructor wouldn't let her use it?

Yep, that's exactly my problem, even if I did buy my own gear, i wouldn't be allowed to use it at my current dropzone. I'm thinking of visiting some other dropzones for some experience at landing at different places and also to try some slightly smaller canopies (baby steps!)


RichM  (D 100226)

Oct 1, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #18 of 33 (4069 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:
yoink wrote:
jailbot wrote:
If you have your A License now, you should try to get a hold of gear! I weigh 150 and am happily flying a 170.

How exactly would that help if the chief instructor wouldn't let her use it?

Depends on one's assumptions.
Instructors instruct & control students. She's apparently not a student any more. So he may be chief of nothing at all when it comes to power over her canopy choices. She can tell him to go stuff himself.

But in practice, you may be right, someone like that probably has other powers at the DZ and may have a say over what people get to jump, for better or for worse...

This is the CCI, and in the UK their word is law Wink


mattjw916  (D License)

Oct 1, 2013, 3:38 PM
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

if your canopy was any bigger you'd need a calendar to measure the flight time... at .65 flaring isn't even really required Tongue

to put it in perspective I'd have to jump a tandem rig without a passenger attached to achieve that wingload

unless you're landing on your face every jump something tells me it isn't unreasonable to go down a size (or two)


(This post was edited by mattjw916 on Oct 1, 2013, 3:41 PM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 1, 2013, 9:08 PM
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Re: [mattjw916] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

mattjw916 wrote:
unless you're landing on your face every jump something tells me it isn't unreasonable to go down a size (or two)
Absolutely. Smile


grue  (D License)

Oct 1, 2013, 9:32 PM
Post #21 of 33 (3916 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

unless things have changed, I seem to recall that A-license students under USPA could have the requirement to use the front risers waivered if they had insufficient upper body strength to operate them, so I don't know why they'd get all derpy about it over there (though of course the BPA and a good portion of the UK in general does have a very beige-cardigan reputation).

I'd say your instructor should probably take up a canopy at .65 and see how well he can pull on 'em. Wink


(This post was edited by grue on Oct 1, 2013, 9:33 PM)


PixieUK  (A License)

Oct 2, 2013, 2:24 AM
Post #22 of 33 (3792 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

mattjw916 wrote:
unless you're landing on your face every jump something tells me it isn't unreasonable to go down a size (or two)

I mostly land on my feet - I struggle a bit with cross wind landings but I've since been told I need to counteract the wind effect on the canopy with a marginally harder pull on the upwind side to keep the canopy level and haven't had a chance to practice this yet.


shropshire  (C License)

Oct 2, 2013, 4:19 AM
Post #23 of 33 (3746 views)
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Re: [PixieUK] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

PixieUK wrote:
mattjw916 wrote:
unless you're landing on your face every jump something tells me it isn't unreasonable to go down a size (or two)

I mostly land on my feet - I struggle a bit with cross wind landings but I've since been told I need to counteract the wind effect on the canopy with a marginally harder pull on the upwind side to keep the canopy level and haven't had a chance to practice this yet.

who ever is telling you that needs to go on Brians Canopy course! -- You canopy does not KNOW about anything except Relative wind


ridebmxbikes  (D 33588)

Oct 2, 2013, 4:55 AM
Post #24 of 33 (3694 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

shropshire wrote:
PixieUK wrote:
mattjw916 wrote:
unless you're landing on your face every jump something tells me it isn't unreasonable to go down a size (or two)

I mostly land on my feet - I struggle a bit with cross wind landings but I've since been told I need to counteract the wind effect on the canopy with a marginally harder pull on the upwind side to keep the canopy level and haven't had a chance to practice this yet.

who ever is telling you that needs to go on Brians Canopy course! -- You canopy does not KNOW about anything except Relative wind


Yes your canopy only know the relative wind, it also doesn't know ground speed. When you are mixing the ground with flying(landing) you are going to have to counteract the wind on a crosswind.

Landing crosswind is the same as doing a flare turn in no winds.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Oct 2, 2013, 7:49 AM
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Re: [RichM] Front risers - how much do they need to move? [In reply to] Can't Post

RichM wrote:
DHemer wrote:
Noob tip: fly in 1/4 or 1/2 brakes first then imediatly go to front risers, this makes it easier to deform the parachute

Is true but defeats the objective of trying achieve forward movement over the ground into strong winds. A pull on the brakes will slow the canopy in the air and so increase the backward speed over the ground. The subsequent pull on the front risers while it will cause the canopy to speed up a little if she can deflect it, will not make the ground lost by applying the brakes. I am only talking here about the student canopy loaded at 0.65, other canopies have different characteristics.

You needn't hold 1/4 to 1/2 brakes for more than a few seconds. The object is to reduce wind speed, and thus the pressure on the front risers. Makes for a much easier pull. Of course as the canopy speeds up, the pressure returns and increases - rapidly. But with an aggressive chin up maneuver, it's easier to hold yourself up (risers down) once you're already there. NEVER take your hands out of the toggles, just use your first two fingers like claws in the dive loops.


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