Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
IS this safe/legal ??

 

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weaverd  (C License)

Sep 24, 2013, 2:30 PM
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IS this safe/legal ?? Can't Post

Dont know if this was posted before I just randomly came across it. I know nothing about the photo.





(This post was edited by weaverd on Sep 24, 2013, 2:30 PM)
Attachments: 45529_559815427422805_1854328588_n.jpg (25.2 KB)


wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 24, 2013, 2:41 PM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe it's legal in the US as long as that's not a real tandem student. But it's pretty stupid regardless to me.

Wendy P.


ridebmxbikes  (D 33588)

Sep 24, 2013, 3:03 PM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pull!!! LaughPirate


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 24, 2013, 4:05 PM
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Re: [wmw999] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
I believe it's legal in the US as long as that's not a real tandem student. But it's pretty stupid regardless to me.

Wendy P.

Not too sure about that, Wendy. US tandem manufacturers are pretty anal about the use of their gear. Lawyers, ya know.

Legal or not, it's stupid as all hell.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on Sep 24, 2013, 4:06 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 24, 2013, 5:37 PM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

done in europe I think.
LegalCrazy who knows, there arent really many "LAWS" in skydiving

Safe, meh, skydiving is not safe, might be "SAFEISH"SlySly


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 25, 2013, 10:19 AM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, and no, and I'll bet the owner of the tandem rig would put his/her foot up the ass of the TI and everyone else involved for doing this.


Shredex

Sep 25, 2013, 3:50 PM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably not safe due to entanglement problems. But it looks like they handled it perfectly.

How about some tandem skyboarding with a guy carving head down around them?
Attachments: tandem_skyboarding.png (258 KB)


skytribe  (D 9403)

Sep 25, 2013, 4:10 PM
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Re: [Shredex] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it safe ? I would say no (although it is downright stupid).

Depending upon where this is in the world determines a authority of the manufacturers to enforce there procedures.

If it were in the US and you are breaching the manufacturer operating instructions then from the discussions at PIA symposium this may breach the FAR and hence not be legal.

(Analogy: The pilot of a commercial jet decides to do barrel rolls in his 737 with passengers. The manouever is outside the operating regulations for the aircraft and hence intentionally doing such actions could and in all likelihood would involve sanctions by the FAA)

If its in the states - I would hope the manufacturers would locate the tandem instructor and pull his ratings. Its clowns like this that give the sport a bad name when there is an Accident. (Note: Someone standing on the container holding the drogue is no accident its a intentional action that increases the risks further with the potential for a triple fatality)


As to skysurfing tandem photo. - Not safe either.


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 25, 2013, 5:00 PM
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Re: [skytribe] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll take your analogy and translate it to real world.
Ask Tex about zero-g rolling a 707

Balls. Tex had 'em.
Stood up to the CEO when he was called on the carpet for it too.

Man....the good old days.....LaughLaughLaugh


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 25, 2013, 5:04 PM
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Re: [skytribe] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

skytribe wrote:
If it were in the US and you are breaching the manufacturer operating instructions then from the discussions at PIA symposium this may breach the FAR and hence not be legal.

Which FAR regulates operation and not just rigging?

For example, 105.46 has some rules on maintaining tandem gear, using an approved harness, having received an approved rating to be a TI, and using an AAD.

But that rule doesn't mention operations.

(Interestingly, that FAR doesn't say anything about having to MAINTAIN any manufacturer rating - just get the initial rating. So that takes away any issue of the manufacturer deciding to pull a rating on a whim, or having to send anyone $25 a year. USPA might however have its own rules.)

But I don't know the FAR's well enough to know what other sections might say on all this.

One might as well say that for non-commercial operations, the example shouldn't be a 737 but playing with a dirt bike off road.


skytribe  (D 9403)

Sep 25, 2013, 5:34 PM
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Re: [normiss] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Really - you think that was the point of the analogy.

Yes I know its possible - and that was a demo flight with no fare paying passengers on by a company test pilot. Did you ever see it done again.

Now Imagine your next flight that someone else thinks they are as good as Tex and because he could do it, thinks that he is capable and its acceptable to do it with a full load of customer on board.

Impressive to do it yes !!!!, Acceptable practice and legal - NOT !!!

Do you think he would maintain his ratings for pulling such a stunt.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 25, 2013, 5:50 PM
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Re: [pchapman] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:
skytribe wrote:
If it were in the US and you are breaching the manufacturer operating instructions then from the discussions at PIA symposium this may breach the FAR and hence not be legal.

Which FAR regulates operation and not just rigging?

For example, 105.46 has some rules on maintaining tandem gear, using an approved harness, having received an approved rating to be a TI, and using an AAD.

But that rule doesn't mention operations.

(Interestingly, that FAR doesn't say anything about having to MAINTAIN any manufacturer rating - just get the initial rating. So that takes away any issue of the manufacturer deciding to pull a rating on a whim, or having to send anyone $25 a year. USPA might however have its own rules.)

But I don't know the FAR's well enough to know what other sections might say on all this.

One might as well say that for non-commercial operations, the example shouldn't be a 737 but playing with a dirt bike off road.

I could be wrong, but I think there's an FAR, directive, or whatever that says all "certificated" equipment - planes, parachutes, etc. - must be operated within the limits set forth by the manufacturer. It's probably not utilized in enforcement actions except in extreme circumstances but I believe it can be.

Can someone clarify?


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Sep 25, 2013, 5:59 PM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, if you're going to "pole dance" a tandem. I'd think you'd do it sans jumpsuit? Wink


Andy9o8  (D License)

Sep 25, 2013, 7:43 PM
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Re: [Squeak] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Safe, meh, skydiving is not safe,

^This. Legality aside, as long as there is no student involved, it's all just adults engaging in assumption of risk.

It always cracks me up when skydivers - Hello? We jump out of planes? - talk about someone else's skydiving stunt as too dangerous to themselves, but their own brand of skydiving is, well, "safe enough".. News item: the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts, and they're more or less right.


rwieder  (C 32349)

Sep 26, 2013, 12:11 PM
Post #15 of 142 (15716 views)
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The legality of this jump doesn't matter to me. It IS NOT a wise decision. The clown on top of the tandem is risking everyone's life here. What about a premature opening? I'm not going to say ignorant, but I'm wanting to.

Best-
Richard


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 26, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Re: IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What about a premature opening?

If you're talking about the consequences of a premature, no big deal. No different than when doing a rodeo dive, tracking dive, atmo, VRW, artistic freefly, etc, whenever one jumper is in or close to the the burble path of another jumper. Everyone gets to be equally dead. (Actually, being right on the jumper with the premature might help a tiny bit -- to get flung off before a large speed differential is created.)

All those types of jumping are well accepted.

If you're talking about the increased chance of a premature, yes, with the drogue out and main cover flaps open the pin area is more exposed. How easily the pin or cable may be dislodged will depend on the particular system. There certainly is some risk there for those who aren't careful with their footwork while hopping on and pole dancing.


rwieder  (C 32349)

Sep 26, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #17 of 142 (15636 views)
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Re: [pchapman] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The legality of this jump doesn't matter to me. It IS NOT a wise decision.

I'm sticking with what I know.

Best-
Richard


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 26, 2013, 1:19 PM
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Re: [skytribe] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

hmmm...so the times I've been in a plane to jump from it, when the pilot did the same maneuver, should I have called the FAA???
Oh wait. Never mind. Regional FAA personnel were there. oopsie.
LaughLaughLaugh



Retaining ratings would depend on where this occurred IMO.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 26, 2013, 1:19 PM
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Re: [weaverd] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

This issue came up about 5(?) years ago and UPT(?) said that was a quick way to lose your TI rating.

If I ever saw a Strong TI doing anything that stupid, I would write a nasty-gram to Strong Enterprises, and that childish TI would lose his Strong TI rating.
The next day, I would give a copy of my nasty-gram to the DZO who hired this idiot.
Strong Enterprises shares their "black list" with UPT and Racer ... and probably Plexus as well.

As for the DZO kicking that idiotic TI in the ass .. he would have to wait until I pulled my stinking shoe out of his @$$!

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


mattjw916  (D License)

Sep 26, 2013, 1:23 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Reminds me of that old joke about people on the freeway... anyone that's driving faster than you is "crazy" and anyone that's driving slower is an "idiot".


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 26, 2013, 1:23 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hang on a sec Rob...and I don't disagree with your mindset...however....

If I'm a TI on a jump, with a vidiot, and a friend wants to chase, I trust their skills and everything enough to ok them coming along.
How the hell do I as the TI prevent an asshat from barber poling us????

Besides the punch in the face afterwards anyway.

Tongue


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 26, 2013, 1:28 PM
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Re: [normiss] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Hang on a sec Rob...and I don't disagree with your mindset...however....

If I'm a TI on a jump, with a vidiot, and a friend wants to chase, I trust their skills and everything enough to ok them coming along.
How the hell do I as the TI prevent an asshat from barber poling us????

Besides the punch in the face afterwards anyway.

Tongue

............................................................................

There is a quiet way to handle that sort of pole-dancing idiot.
After you land, quietly explain what happened to the DZO. If the DZO has any cajones ... er ... professional ethics, he/she will ground the @##hat for a year!

If the DZO does not ground that clown, then you should start looking for work at a more professional DZ.


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 26, 2013, 2:05 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed fully brother.
Cool


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 26, 2013, 2:33 PM
Post #24 of 142 (15365 views)
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Re: [pchapman] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you're talking about the consequences of a premature, no big deal.

wtf?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 26, 2013, 9:29 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] IS this safe/legal ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
Quote:
If you're talking about the consequences of a premature, no big deal.

wtf?
Smile
The point I was making was that the consequences (as deadly as they may be), are no different than they would be for a variety of different ways to skydive, all of which are generally accepted forms of skydiving. Nobody says, "You're doing a tracking jump? What if there were a premature? Your licenses should be pulled!"

That still leaves the problem of to what degree a premature is more likely.


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