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Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway.

 

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TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 8, 2013, 7:05 PM
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Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. Can't Post

Had a very fun jump with Andrew Dibble, Young Ahn and Bruce Crawford. On opening, had about 5 or 6 line twist that I started kicking out of. No big deal.
As I kicked out of the last twist, the slider was still about 3 feet out of my reach with a line coming down from the right side of the canopy and over to the left riser with the canopy in a slow left hand turn.
Left the brakes stowed and tried to counter the left turn with right rear riser input. Still kept turning. Tried grabbing the right rear riser with both hands and pulling and it seemed to stop the turn but I didn't feel it could be safely controlled with me having to keep both hands on the one riser just to try to fly straight, so I chopped it.
Searched the woods where I thought they went down but was unable to find the main or the free bag.
All in all a pretty "interesting" experience. Not at all frightening, just something to be dealt with. Definitely a different sensation as I chopped the main and fell away. I did manage to hang on to both my cutaway and my reserve cables.
( of course, the two least expensive parts to replace )
Wife caught the cutaway on video, so here it is for anyone to view.

http://youtu.be/kuBCPt_ZyZc


Divalent  (C 40494)

Sep 8, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #2 of 31 (4136 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Dang! Sorry to hear about your main and freebag. Unsure (At least your reserve worked. Smile)

But a cool video! Excellent camera work by your wife: a steady hand for what was clearly a long distance shot (which was only apparent later: at first I thought you cut away quite low), and in keeping you in the frame even after the cutaway. Looks like you don't have an RSL, as I counted a bit over 2 sec from main release till your PC appeared. (And it looks like you were almost completely head down when the reserve deployed.)

Anyway, congrats on surviving!


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 8, 2013, 7:44 PM
Post #3 of 31 (4105 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, it sure did work!
Awesome, BigSteve did my repack and saved me from having an even worse day.

Yes, steady hand from the wife. ( doesn't hurt that the camera has some sort of steady setting either )

Correct, no RSL. Bought rig used and it didn't have an RSL. Puts the responsibility entirely on me. I'm ok with that.

Yes, I had a handle in each hand. Took a slight delay to be sure I was clear of the main. I think I did go head down. First time, so I guess I'll have to do it a few more times to get the hang of it.Smile

Thanks


Hellis

Sep 8, 2013, 11:20 PM
Post #4 of 31 (3906 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

So one of the lines from the left side of the canopy was wrapped around the right side lines?
You packed yourself a steptrough.
Nothing you could have done to save it. The error was made on ground while packing.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 2:35 AM
Post #5 of 31 (3772 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that's what I thought it was when I looked up at it.
I didn't catch it when laid it down for the packer.
I always stow my brakes, un-collapse the slider and walk the lines even though I use a packer because I figure it's ultimately my responsibility, not the packer.
The packer does/checks those things also and felt bad for not catching either, but it was 100% my mistake.


PixieUK  (A License)

Sep 9, 2013, 2:53 AM
Post #6 of 31 (3752 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

TracyS wrote:
Yes, that's what I thought it was when I looked up at it.
I didn't catch it when laid it down for the packer.
I always stow my brakes, un-collapse the slider and walk the lines even though I use a packer because I figure it's ultimately my responsibility, not the packer.
The packer does/checks those things also and felt bad for not catching either, but it was 100% my mistake.

Seriously??? You're paying someone else to pack for you and they didn't spot something like that and you think it's your responsibility?
As an extremely new jumper who hasn't even qualified yet, that's a very scary thought Frown


Hellis

Sep 9, 2013, 2:59 AM
Post #7 of 31 (3746 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't be sure, but it could be the packer too.

When the canopy is in the bag it's very easy to make a steptrough.
Did the line cross above the slider or below the slider?
It it was below the slider, both you and the packer should have noticed when you did the linecheck, right?
If it was above it might be harder to see, but should be noticed.

What I think, and keep in mind I was not there so this is speculation.
None of you noticed at the lincheck because there was no steptrough at the time.
Once the canopy was in the bag a line went over the bag and the bridleconnection on the bag.
Instead of lifting the line over the bag again the bag got lifted by the bridle and the PC had to be pulled trough the line also.

This misstake creates a steptrough BELOW the slider, and those are extremly easy to see if they are there when you do the linecheck.

A steptrough above the slider is a messy process which involves passing all the fabric trough one line, and then the bag and PC.
It's "hard" work to create that malfuction.

But keep in mind, this is my speculation. I have no clue what really happend, only you and the packer do.


strife  (D 5457)

Sep 9, 2013, 3:04 AM
Post #8 of 31 (3723 views)
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Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

surprised there wasnt a larger verbal reaction from your wife.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 9, 2013, 4:03 AM
Post #9 of 31 (3648 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I didn't catch it when laid it down for the packer.
I always stow my brakes, un-collapse the slider and walk the lines even though I use a packer

A line check is part of a pack job, and the packer should be doing one every time. The other stuff (brakes/slider/PC) are nice, but also part of a pack job and no packer should be closing a rig without those things being done or checked.

Now if you drop your rig off with nothing done and all twisted up, you're not going to popular with the packers, and you'[re rig will get packed past every time, but all of those things must be done 100%, and 100% of the time.

As far as you're concerned, get an RSL. Your rig is open, and now is a great time to have one installed. This time you had the altitude for what you thought was a 'short' delay, and while it was short, note how quickly you drop away from the main. You may want that extra altitude one day, and an RSL will most likely give that to you.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 4:05 AM
Post #10 of 31 (3648 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hellis,

Thanks for the feedback.

The line was below the slider.

Since the packer and I both always walk the lines and neither of us saw it then, it's possible that it happened the way you speculate.

The packer owned it also, but I take full responsibility for it. It's my gear and ultimately, my responsibility.

I will still use the same packer without any reservation.


dthames  (B 37674)

Sep 9, 2013, 4:07 AM
Post #11 of 31 (3646 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

TracyS wrote:
Yep, it sure did work!
Awesome, BigSteve did my repack and saved me from having an even worse day.

Yes, steady hand from the wife. ( doesn't hurt that the camera has some sort of steady setting either )

Correct, no RSL. Bought rig used and it didn't have an RSL. Puts the responsibility entirely on me. I'm ok with that.

Yes, I had a handle in each hand. Took a slight delay to be sure I was clear of the main. I think I did go head down. First time, so I guess I'll have to do it a few more times to get the hang of it.Smile

Thanks

You have proven you can handle the responsibility. Consider getting an RSL. I cut away under a stable but unsteerable canopy and was fully inflated AND slowed back down under my reserve in 330 feet.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 4:12 AM
Post #12 of 31 (3638 views)
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Re: [strife] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

She did a good job of keeping her cool.

She and I have talked a lot about me jumping and we look at it like any other sporting activity. I figure that it's not a matter of IF I will get hurt while skydiving but a matter of WHEN and to what extent.

Might be a twisted ankle or my be death. Those are the risk we all choose to take while doing this.

She has seen several people have cutaways and come back from them just fine in our brief time in skydiving. Because of that, she was confident that I would deal with it and didn't feel a need to panic.

She did say that she was holding her breath when it happened.

I was very proud of how she didn't over react.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 4:55 AM
Post #13 of 31 (3604 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
Quote:
I didn't catch it when laid it down for the packer.
I always stow my brakes, un-collapse the slider and walk the lines even though I use a packer

A line check is part of a pack job, and the packer should be doing one every time. The other stuff (brakes/slider/PC) are nice, but also part of a pack job and no packer should be closing a rig without those things being done or checked.

Now if you drop your rig off with nothing done and all twisted up, you're not going to popular with the packers, and you'[re rig will get packed past every time, but all of those things must be done 100%, and 100% of the time.

As far as you're concerned, get an RSL. Your rig is open, and now is a great time to have one installed. This time you had the altitude for what you thought was a 'short' delay, and while it was short, note how quickly you drop away from the main. You may want that extra altitude one day, and an RSL will most likely give that to you.

Thanks for the input.
I will consider getting an RSL. Not attempting to rationalize not having one but just clarifying, I chose to wait a second or two before pulling. I had a hand on each handle and could have done a quick one the the other.
Your advice, as always, is good advice and I'll give it some thought.
Although I see the value of an RSL, I have some reservations about having an RSL under a spinning line twist or some other situations that make me feel better about not having it. I know it puts the burden on me to get that reserve punched out, but even with an RSL, the burden is still on me to deploy it too.
I'm quite certain any S&TA or instructor or anyone else for that matter would give me untold crap if I had a cutaway and came back with my reserve cable untouched. Wink

100% of the time, I stow my brakes and un-collapse my slider and slide it up as I coil the lines to pick up my canopy in the field, bring my rig in and lay it down neatly, walk the lines and shake out my canopy to lay it out neatly on the carpet.
I figure I have a vested interest in doing all of these things even though it's a part of the pack job. I also figure it'll keep me in my packer's good graces.Wink


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 4:57 AM
Post #14 of 31 (3598 views)
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Re: [dthames] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

dthames wrote:
TracyS wrote:
Yep, it sure did work!
Awesome, BigSteve did my repack and saved me from having an even worse day.

Yes, steady hand from the wife. ( doesn't hurt that the camera has some sort of steady setting either )

Correct, no RSL. Bought rig used and it didn't have an RSL. Puts the responsibility entirely on me. I'm ok with that.

Yes, I had a handle in each hand. Took a slight delay to be sure I was clear of the main. I think I did go head down. First time, so I guess I'll have to do it a few more times to get the hang of it.Smile

Thanks

You have proven you can handle the responsibility. Consider getting an RSL. I cut away under a stable but unsteerable canopy and was fully inflated AND slowed back down under my reserve in 330 feet.

Thanks for the input. I am going to give some thought to getting an RSL. I do see a value to having one but I also see what I perceive to be some downside. Some food for thought for me.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Sep 9, 2013, 5:34 AM
Post #15 of 31 (3535 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Seriously??? You're paying someone else to pack for you and they didn't spot something like that and you think it's your responsibility?

I too; call "bullshit." You can poo poo the fact that your packer/friend/co-owner missed something to spare the relationship, but that won't save your life. Your packer needs remedial training.


monkycndo  (D License)

Sep 9, 2013, 6:36 AM
Post #16 of 31 (3464 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

At Safety Day, a question was posed to those that do not use an RSL.

When under your reserve, would you rather land with line twists or at line stretch?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 9, 2013, 6:53 AM
Post #17 of 31 (3396 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I will consider getting an RSL

Although I see the value of an RSL, I have some reservations about having an RSL under a spinning line twist or some other situations that make me feel better about not having it.

Here's the problem with your thinking, your reservation about the RSL is that you don't want to dump your reserve right after cutting away from a spinning mal and so what you're doing is building the idea of waiting until you are square and stable to dump your reserve, and this is exactly where people get into trouble.

A spinning mal is also a diving mal, and that means you're losing altitude faster than you think. When you combine that with a pre-determined idea that you need to delay and get stable, you're creating a recipe for an incident.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of RSL deployments from spinning mals have resulted in no problems what so ever. Let's go back to the first jump course, and review the pull priorities -
1. Pull
2. Pull at the correct altitude
3. Pull while stable

In a mal/cutaway situation, the correct altitude is long past, that's where you threw your PC before the mal, so at that point 'pull' comes well before 'stable'.

Monkey made a great, succinct point - Would you rather hit the ground with line twists, or with your slider still up?


nadominhoca  (A 67988)

Sep 9, 2013, 7:10 AM
Post #18 of 31 (3346 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion, everytime you give your rig for someone to pack your parachute, you are taking a certain risk... no matter how good the packer is!!! It takes only one minor mistake for a bad packing job.. which eventually could lend to a malfunction..

I agree with the PO... it's your responsibility at the end of the day!! In my DZ, we have 10-15 packers every weekend.. those guys works like machine, packing one parachute after the other... I wouldn't blame them for a potential malfunction in my canopy due to a "bad" packing job..

We have two options... 1) Learn how to pack... 2) Give your rig to someone else to pack it.. and trust them!!


Ron

Sep 9, 2013, 7:48 AM
Post #19 of 31 (3301 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I will consider getting an RSL. Not attempting to rationalize not having one but just clarifying, I chose to wait a second or two before pulling. I had a hand on each handle and could have done a quick one the the other.
Your advice, as always, is good advice and I'll give it some thought.

Don't let people bully you into doing what THEY want. You did fine. Yes, an RSL might save you, it also might kill you but they never mention that point.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 8:08 AM
Post #20 of 31 (3277 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
Quote:
Seriously??? You're paying someone else to pack for you and they didn't spot something like that and you think it's your responsibility?

I too; call "bullshit." You can poo poo the fact that your packer/friend/co-owner missed something to spare the relationship, but that won't save your life. Your packer needs remedial training.

BIGUN,

You're welcome to call "bullshit" if you want.
I'm not trying to spare a relationship. The packer acknowledged that they should have caught it. Me beating up on them about it isn't going to make the situation any better.
As far as my responsibility goes, it IS my responsibility. If I choose to delegate that task to a packer, that is my prerogative, but it doesn't change the fact that it is my equipment, my life and therefore MY responsibility.

Coming from a military aviation background, I am compelled to try to look at something like objectively and acknowledge whether there is anything I did that contributed to it or could have done to prevent it.

I missed it and so did the packer. I can't absolve my own part in this because I'd rather pay a packer $6.00 for a pack job.
I can guarantee my packer does a good job, but is also human.

Thanks for your input , I do appreciate it even if I disagree with you.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 8:12 AM
Post #21 of 31 (3271 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

monkycndo wrote:
At Safety Day, a question was posed to those that do not use an RSL.

When under your reserve, would you rather land with line twists or at line stretch?

Monkycndo, you make a valid point. As said before I'm going to reevaluate my position on the RSL.
As always, I appreciate the constructive feedback that I get from experienced, knowledgable folks like yourself. That is why I posted the video and the description to spark the conversation and help me assess my position.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 8:15 AM
Post #22 of 31 (3263 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
Quote:
I will consider getting an RSL

Although I see the value of an RSL, I have some reservations about having an RSL under a spinning line twist or some other situations that make me feel better about not having it.

Here's the problem with your thinking, your reservation about the RSL is that you don't want to dump your reserve right after cutting away from a spinning mal and so what you're doing is building the idea of waiting until you are square and stable to dump your reserve, and this is exactly where people get into trouble.

A spinning mal is also a diving mal, and that means you're losing altitude faster than you think. When you combine that with a pre-determined idea that you need to delay and get stable, you're creating a recipe for an incident.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of RSL deployments from spinning mals have resulted in no problems what so ever. Let's go back to the first jump course, and review the pull priorities -
1. Pull
2. Pull at the correct altitude
3. Pull while stable

In a mal/cutaway situation, the correct altitude is long past, that's where you threw your PC before the mal, so at that point 'pull' comes well before 'stable'.

Monkey made a great, succinct point - Would you rather hit the ground with line twists, or with your slider still up?

Well said sir, to you and Monkycndo


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 8:20 AM
Post #23 of 31 (3252 views)
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Re: [nadominhoca] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

nadominhoca wrote:
In my opinion, everytime you give your rig for someone to pack your parachute, you are taking a certain risk... no matter how good the packer is!!! It takes only one minor mistake for a bad packing job.. which eventually could lend to a malfunction..

I agree with the PO... it's your responsibility at the end of the day!! In my DZ, we have 10-15 packers every weekend.. those guys works like machine, packing one parachute after the other... I wouldn't blame them for a potential malfunction in my canopy due to a "bad" packing job..

We have two options... 1) Learn how to pack... 2) Give your rig to someone else to pack it.. and trust them!!

Agreed. I'm not saying they had no part in it or absolving their role in it.
I'm simply accepting that it MY gear and that if you crank out pack jobs like some of them do on a weekend, sooner or later something is going to happen.
I walked away from it with my little "no shit, there I was" story with no harm to myself.
I'm still confident in my packer.


TracyS  (C 41941)

Sep 9, 2013, 8:23 AM
Post #24 of 31 (3248 views)
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Re: [Ron] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
Quote:
I will consider getting an RSL. Not attempting to rationalize not having one but just clarifying, I chose to wait a second or two before pulling. I had a hand on each handle and could have done a quick one the the other.
Your advice, as always, is good advice and I'll give it some thought.

Don't let people bully you into doing what THEY want. You did fine. Yes, an RSL might save you, it also might kill you but they never mention that point.

Thanks, I don't take it as bullying. This something that they believe in and I am willing to listen to differing opinions than mine so that I can see it from someone else's point of view.


Hellis

Sep 9, 2013, 8:27 AM
Post #25 of 31 (3242 views)
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Re: [TracyS] Long weekend, NOT the good kind. My first cutaway. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, lets talk about the spinning mal.
You are concerned that when you chop from a spinning mal you keep spining.
How?
Have you ever seen this sport? http://youtu.be/Wc7ZfGsjcd4
Imagine you are the hammer and spinning around the canopy (the guy).
What happens when he chops (lets go)?

Does the hammer keep spinning and wobble around the whole stadium, or does it keep it's trajectory?
Looks pretty darn straight to me!


I also advice you to get a RSL, beeing headdown when deploying the reserve is not ideal.
It could easily have gone much worse than any spinning malfunction-chop with RSL/Skyhook.


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