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Malfunction - entangled lines

 


UnknownEntity

Sep 2, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #1 of 23 (5871 views)
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Malfunction - entangled lines Can't Post

Hi! I had my first cutaway this weekend. I am student with only 24 jumps but I am hoping to have many more safe jumps in the coming years. I was flying a student canopy called Falcon (either 240 or 300 - dont know sorry).

After opening at 1500m the slider came only half way down and the lines leading to the left side of canopy were entangled (see the picture - sorry for the quality). The entanglement caused the two left canopy cells not to inflate. It also pulled left side of the canopy slightly down which caused the canopy to turn somewhat slowly to the left. My guess is that the 360 deg turn would be completed (by itself) in approx. 7 seconds (did not try a whole turn). I tried to "pump" the malfunction away but it only did help the slider to come down. At approx. 1000m I gave up the pumping, checked whats below me and cut away. Thankfully reserve came up ok.

#1: I just wanted to check with you guys if this malfunction is common or if you even consider it a malfunction? I dont remember learning about this precise malfunction. The closest one would be a "line over". What can cause this? Is this a out of sequence opening?

#2: Would you land this? My instructors told me that it is individual and that I did the right thing by cutting away, but I think they say that only not to discourage possible further cutaways when the situation is more severe. I just wanted to know the unbiassed opinion:) (to actually learn something).

#3: Say that this happened on my reserve, what do I do? During landing I just flare the malfunctioning side all the way down and the ok one only so far as not to induce a turn? And then of course a PLF.

#4: Or is there something else that I should have tried to clear this?

Thanks guys for possible answers. Hopefully at least I learn something from this cutaway.


(This post was edited by UnknownEntity on Sep 2, 2013, 2:42 PM)
Attachments: malfunction.png (20.4 KB)


piisfish

Sep 2, 2013, 2:45 PM
Post #2 of 23 (5700 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

this sounds like a tension knot.
good job on deciding high enough that you didn't want to land it.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Sep 2, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #3 of 23 (5650 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Congratulations! Good management of the problem by executing EPs.

2. Yes, I would execute EPs if I had this problem.

3. What this is called does not matter... You had a canopy without proper shape.... The correct response is to execute EPs.

4. This most likely is due to a tension knot. Those will often disappear when the canopy is on the ground and the lines are slack. These are often due to fuzzy lines (excess wear).

5. Not very likely on a reserve (but possible). The inspection standards for reserve canopies are very high and the process of packing reserves is far more careful.

6. I would STRONGLY discourage your attempts to "fix" problems like this rather than executing EPs promptly. There have been FAR too many jumpers who died because they tried to "fix" something for too long.

7. You did well.


(This post was edited by GLIDEANGLE on Sep 2, 2013, 3:16 PM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 2, 2013, 7:17 PM
Post #4 of 23 (5398 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

#1 - If the canopy isn't landable, it's a malfunction. Chop it. From your description, I agree with the others that it was probably tension knots. In addition to worn, fuzzy lines, they can come from the steering lines being twisted up. Those twists form loops, those loops form tension knots. They disappear as soon as the tension is removed from the lines. Ask your instructors about them.

#2 - I doubt I'd try to land it. Even a 7 second turn will cause enough of a dive to be a problem, especially if it is allowed to continue for a while. It may have been possible to use risers on the knotted side and toggle on the unknotted side to perform enough of a flare to land safely... Or maybe not. I might screw with it a little, and see how controllable it was, if I had enough altitude to do these things. But if I am at my hard deck and I am not certain that I have enough control to land safely... See Ya.

#3 - It is unlikely to happen on a reserve. Packing is much more neatly and precisely done.
If it did happen, then you have to do the best you can to land as softly and smoothly as you can. Not much other choice, is there? Again, a combination of rear riser on knotted side and toggle or rear on unknotted side to get as close to normal flight as possible, flare as best you can, PLF like a SOB on landing.

#4 - Other than pumping the brakes, which you did, the only way to get rid of tension knots is to relieve the tension. You could theortically stall the canopy to do this, then snap the knotted lines with a "whip like" motion to try and clear them. BUT doing this is a pretty advanced maneuver. I doubt that I would even try this myself, unless it was a deliberate high pull. I'd want a lot of altitude before I'd even consider something like this.

From your description, you did not have a canopy you could land safely.
That is a situation that calls for the reserve. It's not a "severity" issue. It's a judgement issue.
"Can I land this thing?" If not... See Ya.

You also did not screw around too long trying to fix it (this has caused a couple deaths recently).

I would say you did the right thing.


yoink

Sep 3, 2013, 4:32 AM
Post #5 of 23 (5005 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

wolfriverjoe wrote:
You could theortically stall the canopy to do this, then snap the knotted lines with a "whip like" motion to try and clear them. BUT doing this is a pretty advanced maneuver.

Not a maneuver I've ever heard of, or ever heard suggested before... it sound like a daft idea to me.

Even if you manage to stall the canopy without causing more issues, how are you going to 'whip' the lines when both hands are holding your toggles down for the stall?

Even if you free a hand, do you really think any shaking you do is going to matter in the slightest compared to the battering it's getting from the stall?

and finally, as you're descending in a stall the lines are still under tension - you're not going to get any 'whip' motion in them.


Skydivers - students and experienced jumpers alike, need to stop thinking they can fix shit in the air. And we certainly need to stop advising people that it's a viable alternative.


(This post was edited by yoink on Sep 3, 2013, 4:34 AM)


UnknownEntity

Sep 3, 2013, 7:05 AM
Post #6 of 23 (4909 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you all very much for helpful replies. I am happy to say that I have learned something today.

Regarding the points #3 and particularly #4 - dont worry, I was only interested in hypothetical solutions. I know that in reality you cannot waste time trying to fix issues on main (beyond the very basics). You better save the time for fixing (possible) issues on reserve. But hopfully there wont be any.


tdog  (D 28800)

Sep 3, 2013, 7:24 AM
Post #7 of 23 (4877 views)
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Re: [yoink] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Skydivers - students and experienced jumpers alike, need to stop thinking they can fix shit in the air. And we certainly need to stop advising people that it's a viable alternative.

Unless it is a reserve... Thus, we should learn how to fix stuff as sometimes plan C is needed. Tongue I had an AFF level 1 land/turn his reserve on rear risers this year.....

I see someone posted "pump brakes". If it is a tension knot - it might be helpful to release the brakes as quickly as you can to get a momentary slack in the line.


skydivecat  (C License)

Sep 3, 2013, 7:42 AM
Post #8 of 23 (4852 views)
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Re: [tdog] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

I had this EXACT thing happen this weekend (250 jumps) and I almost chopped it. I wasn't 100% sure what was happening as my toggles both popped, but my left side had a lot of tension (hence why they prolly call it a tension knot...) on it and I couldn't get that side to feel released. I only load at 1.1 so that put me in a bit of a slow spin, but nothing crazy.

I managed to clear it accidently by pulling down as hard as possible on my left toggle. I was nearing my decision altitude (it was my left side so I could see my altimeter the entire time I was messing with it which was nice) so I yanked down as hard as I could, nothing was changing, so I released my toggles and went for my handles when all of a sudden she was flying nice and pretty over my head. I did a controllability check and landed her.

In talking to some of the more experienced guys we all agreed it was a tension knot and my left steering line appeared to be a bit twisted up compared to my right. We untwisted them both as I packed, and up I went. They advised me that a tension knot can sometimes be cleared doing exactly what I did: putting as much stress on it as possible, then completely releasing. I cleared it by complete accident, but it opened up a good discussion for me, and was a great learning experience. I was going to chop it too, it was pure luck that I cleared it. If you can't land what you have, never hesitate to get rid of it!


(This post was edited by skydivecat on Sep 3, 2013, 8:12 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 3, 2013, 8:03 AM
Post #9 of 23 (4785 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

You have 24 total jumps. That's only theoretically (where that term has been used so far in this thread it seems, a lot Wink) ...one jump away from being able to hold a nice, shiny, freshly-minted USPA A license - - - and you don't know what (size) canopy you were jumping?

Quote:
either 240 or 300 - dont know sorry

Please - "fix" that too.


mx19  (D License)

Sep 3, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #10 of 23 (4696 views)
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Re: [tdog] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

If it does happen on a reserve then the best way to get rid of tension knots, as well as stalling, is to pull the riser that has the line groups on and instead of slowly releasing the riser, once it is pulled down all the way you need to let go completely which will cause the lines to go slack momentarily and allow the knot to undo.

I have done this on a few tandems which seem to be slightly more common and a sport jump or two.


UnknownEntity

Sep 3, 2013, 10:15 AM
Post #11 of 23 (4584 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Scrumpot wrote:
You have 24 total jumps. That's only theoretically (where that term has been used so far in this thread it seems, a lot Wink) ...one jump away from being able to hold a nice, shiny, freshly-minted USPA A license - - - and you don't know what (size) canopy you were jumping?

Please - "fix" that too.

What is the difference? I jump all the time on the same type and size of canopy. I mean safety-wise - does it have any impact at all?

Once/If I change the chute, I will be sure to check the difference and wingload.


TrickyMike  (A 67853)

Sep 3, 2013, 12:42 PM
Post #12 of 23 (4454 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

What is the difference?

60 square feet, which is a lot.

Jokes aside, you should know what's in your container at all times...


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 3, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #13 of 23 (4383 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you serious?

You don't think it has any impact, any matter - or should be of any (or anybody else's, apparently to either question or point it out to you) concern - what canopy you had, or are jumping? Even in a rig you (presumably) just "take off the shelf"?

Maybe on your 1st, or even 2nd total jump(s) you might not know (or care to know)... But on your 24th now total jump, and again -presumably- progressing towards (if not already supposedly closing in on/close to) attainment of your 1st level of skydiving proficiency license -??

I guess then, you really don't care either, as apparent in your response - to be concerned then (no joking - who said I was joking?) to consider what kind of very real (SAFETY & TRAINING ...the very forum this is posted in!) DEFICIENCY this indicates.

Wow.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Sep 3, 2013, 2:56 PM
Post #14 of 23 (4283 views)
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Re: [mx19] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Every time I've had tension knots there has always been one line at the top of the riser that was slack - not pulled tight. I've always just been able to reach up and pull on the slack line and fix it. Admittedly I've always done this on 7 cell relatively docile canopies - they weren't spinning out of control or anything. It should work similarly on a reserve.


UnknownEntity

Sep 5, 2013, 12:23 AM
Post #15 of 23 (3797 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Scrumpot wrote:
Are you serious?

You don't think it has any impact, any matter - or should be of any (or anybody else's, apparently to either question or point it out to you) concern - what canopy you had, or are jumping? Even in a rig you (presumably) just "take off the shelf"?

Maybe on your 1st, or even 2nd total jump(s) you might not know (or care to know)... But on your 24th now total jump, and again -presumably- progressing towards (if not already supposedly closing in on/close to) attainment of your 1st level of skydiving proficiency license -??

I guess then, you really don't care either, as apparent in your response - to be concerned then (no joking - who said I was joking?) to consider what kind of very real (SAFETY & TRAINING ...the very forum this is posted in!) DEFICIENCY this indicates.

Wow.

You have probably noticed, but let me stress this out: I am not from US. Things here might be different that what you are used to.

At our DZ jumpers with approx <50 jumps (maybe even higher) can jump only one size of canopy. Thats the Falcon 240 or 300 (again - right now I do not know). Also we do not take anything off the shelf, they are handed to us by the DZ owner directly.

Regarding the safety ... the fact remains that with a given weight restriction of a jumper (something about 100-110kg) I know that these canopies satisfy the regulation requirements. Since I am 85kg I know that I am safe and the others are safe too.

Given that I roughly know the weight restriction I might even be able to calculate if it is 240 or 300. I would just have to find out the maximum wing load for students.


(This post was edited by UnknownEntity on Sep 5, 2013, 12:30 AM)


rifleman  (Student)

Sep 5, 2013, 6:33 AM
Post #16 of 23 (3692 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't you write the container/canopy details in your logbook on every entry along with the A/c, exit altitude and other details of the jump.

An example entry from my logbook would read:

Date:
DZ: AnyDZ
Aircraft: Skyvan
Altitude: 4,000 ft
Equipment: Javelin/Skymaster 290
Manoeuvre: S/L D/P

and so on.


UnknownEntity

Sep 5, 2013, 8:40 AM
Post #17 of 23 (3592 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, but we use "Falcon" only. Probably that has to do with the fact I mentioned earlier - there is only one type for students.

D.


rifleman  (Student)

Sep 5, 2013, 10:13 AM
Post #18 of 23 (3507 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Our DZ only uses Skymaster 290 canopies for students below A licence but we're still required to log the equipment jumped including the size.


NorrinRadd  (Student)

Sep 5, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #19 of 23 (3480 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I'd just be curious and ask.
But aside from that, I am glad you got out safe and sound, and that you are jumping safely! Nice work Smile


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 6, 2013, 9:21 PM
Post #20 of 23 (3072 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

You are missing my meaning and intentions, entirely. I know you are not from the United States (even though your profile could use being filled in - hint, hint Tongue) - - It does not matter what country you are from, or are jumping within. ...Nor does whatever language your native tongue may be have anything to do with anything!

My point is - no matter what country you are from, or wherever you may be jumping - it is an important component to learning skydiving - to also LEARNING/knowing YOUR GEAR!! Here you are, at 24 jumps ...regardless of what country you are in or from (again - it is of NO MATERIAL MATTER!), and you for whatever "reason" ...Do not know what even size of your canopy is, that you are jumping. That, IMO - is a deficiency in TRAINING (in ANY country) and learning progression.

You can say you are "safe" all you want. And even that others are safe too. But your words in that regard hold no credibility, as you also clearly do not even know, what you do not know - and that, to me - is a concern. I am only here now trying to get you to think. You should at this point in your "progression" - and in ANY country's progression that I am aware of - at 24 jumps, at least know and be able to answer (if not even be starting to understand) for yourself the size of main canopy you are jumping, and what is (and is within, and components of) the gear that is being handed to you.

You can start to THINK now, and maybe go back and ask - and CONSIDER this - to your own (learning opportunity) benefit, or - you can just "dismiss" me and simply continue to assure yourself as however you will, that you are "safe".

I've heard the phrase before, ignorance is bliss - but it always makes me cringe when ANYONE tries to apply that philosophy to something so gear & gear knowledge intensive an activity as skydiving.

Good luck to you in your progression, whatever that may be, and wherever (and in whatever country) you are.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Sep 6, 2013, 9:28 PM)


potatoman  (Student)

Sep 10, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #21 of 23 (2594 views)
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Re: [UnknownEntity] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your pic.

What colour was the canopy? hahahaha


format  (B 15348)

Sep 10, 2013, 1:32 PM
Post #22 of 23 (2459 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like your pic.
What colour was the canopy? hahahaha
I like it too
definitely 'Fandango' style Laugh


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Sep 10, 2013, 10:04 PM
Post #23 of 23 (2286 views)
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Re: [yoink] Malfunction - entangled lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure about the "snap motion" part, but stalling the canopy removes the tension and can allow a tension knot to clear. Total crapshoot but not a bad idea if you have altitude IMO.



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