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Danger of butt landing?

 

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AviationTD  (A License)

Sep 2, 2013, 10:31 AM
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Danger of butt landing? Can't Post

Just an "A" licensed and introvert fellow sharing a concern.....

Just got back from two-day 'boogie'. It was fun and learning experience for me. Fairly large percent of jumpers are at least B licensed or better. There is one thing that got me cringed every time. I have seen jumpers approached to LZ with plans to land on butt. I was taught to avoid that at all cost. In my opinion, it is better to have a broken leg than broken back. When I see that type of landings, I wanted to approach them badly and tell them not to make an habit of landing on butt. I decided against that because I am still newbie and majority of them are B jumpers or better. I didn't want to offend them. On the second day, my fear confirmed. One jumper clearly misjudged his approach (lack of flaring) and still lifted his leg. He landed hard and bounced a bit. He was on the ground grabbing his butt for a good bit of time. He managed to get up and shaken it off, but he was done for the day. By the look of it, I am willing to bet you that he fractured his bone somewhere in his back, but I probably will never find out.

Now, should I say something next time, given the fact that I am still newbie?


ChrisD  (No License)

Sep 2, 2013, 10:41 AM
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes.



C


wicodefly  (B License)

Sep 2, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would mention it to an instructor maybe.

I PLF'd into a tarmac on Thursday and got scraped up a little. Did the roll and ended up on my opposite butt cheek. Definitely stung, but could have been a lot worse.

I'm still working on landings and getting an A license and try to avoid butt landings; you really feel it in your back.


frontloop33

Sep 2, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

What's wrong with a "tandem-style" butt landing?
Like using your feet for a first contact and to absorb the force and then sit on your butt?

Seems better to me than doing a way-too-fast PLF and a nice faceplant.

Using your butt for a first contact (instead of your feet) is - of course - not very wise.


DougH  (D License)

Sep 2, 2013, 10:58 AM
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Re: [frontloop33] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

frontloop33 wrote:
What's wrong with a "tandem-style" butt landing?
Like using your feet for a first contact and to absorb the force and then sit on your butt?

The problem is that they take skill to pull off consistently.

They work well, for well performed landings, with good conditions.

If you misjudge and flare late, or flare to early and run out of steam, your legs will absorb much less of the impact if they are extended and out in front than they will if they are underneath you.

Even a poor PLF has much less chance of you impacting straight down on your spine, but with your legs out and in front, it is almost guaranteed that you will impact straight down on your tail bone and spine, the only question is how hard.


(This post was edited by DougH on Sep 2, 2013, 11:00 AM)


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Sep 2, 2013, 11:33 AM
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why folks would use a butt landing instead of a baseball type slide on SIDE is beyond me.

Regarding how to approach folks..... Ask them questions rather than telling them what to do. That works WAY better.


mattjw916  (D License)

Sep 2, 2013, 12:00 PM
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

The first time you severely bruise or break your coccyx is the last time you will ever debate whether butt landings are a good idea.

I landed on mine once while doing some ridiculous jump spinning back kick against a heavy bag while I was working out back when I used to do Tae Kwon Do and that was probably the singularly most painful injury, other than a motorcycle crash, that I ever experienced. Walking up stairs to class for the next week or so was pure torture.

I'll take a PLF and a trip to the laundry room over a ricochet off my ass and a trip to the emergency room any day. Bang in hard enough and that's a handy way to get some sort of compression fracture of the spine. No thanks.


demoknite  (D License)

Sep 2, 2013, 12:26 PM
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people dont want to pull off the Usain Bolt sprint to run off the momentum of their canopy. If you time it right a butt slide is safe or even safer than trying to run it out.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 2, 2013, 12:49 PM
Post #9 of 28 (4660 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

GLIDEANGLE wrote:
Why folks would use a butt landing instead of a baseball type slide on SIDE is beyond me.

Regarding how to approach folks..... Ask them questions rather than telling them what to do. That works WAY better.

I suspect a lot of people don't know the difference, or aren't articulating it well.
Baseball slides are fine in many situations.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Sep 2, 2013, 1:02 PM
Post #10 of 28 (4631 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

GLIDEANGLE wrote:
Why folks would use a butt landing instead of a baseball type slide on SIDE is beyond me.

Regarding how to approach folks..... Ask them questions rather than telling them what to do. That works WAY better.
For students there is only the PLF.

Getting fed up with one of my students nagging about butt landings, I put him on a picnic table. I told him to look down and asked whether he'd like to jump off and land on his butt . He declined and went on to make a sterling PLF after his first jump. Cool

When I teach the FJC I routinely tell my students that if they do a standup during their first five jumps I'd make him PLF all the way back to the packing area.

Seriously, I once saw a student flare at about five meters and land on his ass.. it's not something I want to see again soon.CrazyUnimpressedPirate


littlestranger  (C 34765)

Sep 2, 2013, 2:17 PM
Post #11 of 28 (4508 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is one thing that got me cringed every time. I have seen jumpers approached to LZ with plans to land on butt. I was taught to avoid that at all cost. In my opinion, it is better to have a broken leg than broken back.

butt landings in general are a bad idea. i'd be more concerned with compressing the discs over time than actually breaking my back. someone with a b license or higher that can't land their canopy needs to either upsize or take a canopy control class. they need to learn how to maximize their flare. there are quite a few simple tricks one can employ to get the most lift from the canopy. some of them include: building up speed before final, loosening the chest strap to open the canopy up more and flairing completely and on time.

i suspect that many new jumpers are flying older gear that was bought used, canopies with alot of jumps on them fly and land differently. this needs to be taken into consideration.

i used to jump a spectre that had so many jumps on it that it was like flying a reserve, it was so porous...i would adapt by building up speed before my final. there are good ways and bad ways to do this. sinking in and releasing is a good way to build up speed. speed = lift, carving in works great to build up speed but this is a VERY, VERY bad idea for a newbie that may not have the experience to calculate how low they are or when there are alot of people in the air. so don't do it until you have mastered your canopy skills. you can totally screw everyone behind you. save this for method for later...just saying.

learn to flare, and flare well. loosening your chest strap will inflate the canopy more and maximize your flare, but keep in mind that you will also fly further.

i relate timing my flare and point that i'll be landing with rollerblading, always look ahead to where you are going, don't look down. focus on the horizon.

this is how i've learned to land my canopy. i'm sure there are many opinions on the subject and i'm not particulary concerned with the potential flaming that my opinons may result in. opinions are like assholes, we all have one. this is mine : )

just want to add, every dropzone is different. altitude will play a significant part on how your canopy performs. you'll find that higher altitude dz's where the air is thinner will relate to faster approaches. keep this in mind as you try to dial things in.

never stop learning or asking questions.
t.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 2, 2013, 5:56 PM
Post #12 of 28 (4314 views)
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Re: [littlestranger] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

By and large, when I consider a butt landing I wonder -- if I'm not good enough to land on my feet, why exactly do I think that landing on my backbone is better?

Yes, you can slide if you're going too fast. I've done one or two of them, but as a rule I'd much rather do baseball-type landings instead of butt landings.

Wendy P.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 2, 2013, 6:40 PM
Post #13 of 28 (4231 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

demoknite wrote:
Some people dont want to pull off the Usain Bolt sprint to run off the momentum of their canopy. If you time it right a butt slide is safe or even safer than trying to run it out.

..........................................................................

Some of those people bought canopies that are faster than their brains.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Sep 2, 2013, 6:43 PM
Post #14 of 28 (4222 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope as DSE said some people are calling baseball slides butt landings. For others, butt landing - equal stains on both cheeks, baseball slide - stains on one cheek and thigh.

But (Butt?) I had a reason to do them. After I busted up my tibia and fibula I couldn't take a running step. Ankle just didn't do it. So if I had any forward speed I needed to slide. And I got real good at it.Blush I'd pop right up at the end just like a baseball slide. After about two years one of the screws in my ankle was broken and started backing itself out under the skin. After it was taken out I could run. Not well but at least my ankle would do it. But I had gotten so used to flaring for my right cheek that I would consistently flare low when planning on landing on my feet. Flaring low lasted,,, Hmmm kind of until now 24 years later.Crazy Not reallyAngelic but it did last for several years.

The first ever tandem I saw was at our DZ by Dick Higley in the real early pre-drogue years. When I saw him come in with a flat on his butt landing I cringed. Right square on his spine. He said that's what he had to do most of the time.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 2, 2013, 6:45 PM
Post #15 of 28 (4218 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

First choice is always a gracefully flared approach leading to a stand-up landing.
Second choice is a PLF.
Third choice is a baseball slide, if your canopy is too fast and most of your momentum is forward.
Fourth choice is landing straight down on your butt.

Why did I put butt landings priority last?

Hint: 26 years ago, I herniated a disc in my lower spine and it never healed completely. Today, sciatica pains are reminding me to do more stretches.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Sep 2, 2013, 7:01 PM
Post #16 of 28 (4191 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

a true, sit down hard, butt landing can get ya' hurt...So more like when the great Maury Wills would steal second,,,,, use a baseball slide....ShockedCool.
But only IF you had been taught the Right way to perform such a slide..... ( hearkens back to those summer days of little league baseball and sandlot pick up games )

If possible , complete the slide with a Pop UP move... utilizing the last of your momentum, to finish back on your feet...

Not only might a " flat on your ass " landing hurt.....by compressing the lower spine / tailbone, But you can also cause injury to arms shoulders wrists and elbows..by smacking One of those parts or another into the ground , as the landing commences,,,,When in a full flare,,, your hands will hit the ground,,, before your butt does.UnsureFrownMad
Please, also take into account the time of Year and whether the ground is wet/ spongy OR dry/hard...don't forget that the landing area at the DZ can get hard as concrete once the dry season arrives...

Probably best to always land on your Feet... but when running out a speedy final is tooo challenging, or physically demanding,,,it's best to find a safer alternative..

I'll take a few well earned grass stains, over a break or dislocation, anyday....
Smile


Mr.Bill  (D 9035)

Sep 2, 2013, 11:15 PM
Post #17 of 28 (4039 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do NOT land on your butt.
25 years ago I landed on my butt. I have been paralyzed from the waist down ever since.


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 3, 2013, 12:32 AM
Post #18 of 28 (3965 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

People forget that when a tandem does a butt slide, the instructor is actually highly experienced. Newbie's trying base ball slides and butt slides simply don't have the experience to do it safely.

I started on rounds and had PLF's drummed into me, far more thoroughly than anybody has nowadays. I honestly believe that your average jumper nowadays doesn't know 'how' to do a PLF properly and it isn't second nature due to minimal training during AFF.

I also believe that PLF's and how they are taught need to be completely re-thought. The old rounds came straight down and a PLF is well suited to that, a modern canopy has significant forward speed and I think something based on a martial arts or gymnastics roll would be better suited. BUT all those rolls take significant practice to master, not 30 minutes during an AFF course. Look at the rolls the guys doing Parkour are doing on their big jumps, they are very different to a PLF, to me it appears a good way to go, not that I have the training or knowledge to even begin to try one myself.


yoink

Sep 3, 2013, 4:39 AM
Post #19 of 28 (3777 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skill aside, all it takes is one inconveniently placed stone hidden in the grass that you didn't see and a butt landing will put you in hospital.

They're a bad idea in my mind for that reason alone.


faulk04  (D 32457)

Sep 3, 2013, 8:54 AM
Post #20 of 28 (3625 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

AviationTD wrote:
Just an "A" licensed and introvert fellow sharing a concern.....

Just got back from two-day 'boogie'. It was fun and learning experience for me. Fairly large percent of jumpers are at least B licensed or better. There is one thing that got me cringed every time. I have seen jumpers approached to LZ with plans to land on butt. I was taught to avoid that at all cost. In my opinion, it is better to have a broken leg than broken back. When I see that type of landings, I wanted to approach them badly and tell them not to make an habit of landing on butt. I decided against that because I am still newbie and majority of them are B jumpers or better. I didn't want to offend them. On the second day, my fear confirmed. One jumper clearly misjudged his approach (lack of flaring) and still lifted his leg. He landed hard and bounced a bit. He was on the ground grabbing his butt for a good bit of time. He managed to get up and shaken it off, but he was done for the day. By the look of it, I am willing to bet you that he fractured his bone somewhere in his back, but I probably will never find out.

Now, should I say something next time, given the fact that I am still newbie?

that landing looked like it hurt A LOT. I think the others who saw it thought the same thing. Winds were getting crazy when he landed so I'm glad they put A&B license holders on a wind hold for a little. There was a good amount of people landing on their butt though at the boogie.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Sep 3, 2013, 9:33 AM
Post #21 of 28 (3573 views)
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Re: [AviationTD] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, since no one else has asked....
Where was the boogie and where/who is teaching this to students and or low time jumpers?
This is so far beyond stupid.....


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Sep 3, 2013, 11:33 AM)


elightle  (D 5966)

Sep 3, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #22 of 28 (3499 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

demoknite wrote:
Some people dont want to pull off the Usain Bolt sprint to run off the momentum of their canopy. If you time it right a butt slide is safe or even safer than trying to run it out.

Usain Bolt run not needed if you let the canopy plane out and fly as long as it wants. :)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 3, 2013, 12:55 PM
Post #23 of 28 (3370 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

>who is teaching this to students and or low time jumpers?

No one needs to. They watch tandem landings and think "if it's good enough for TM's it's certainly good enough for me! And since I am having trouble standing up my landings, this solves that problem."


(This post was edited by billvon on Sep 3, 2013, 12:56 PM)


Keithor  (B 6692)

Sep 3, 2013, 7:07 PM
Post #24 of 28 (3204 views)
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Re: [billvon] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>who is teaching this to students and or low time jumpers?

No one needs to. They watch tandem landings and think "if it's good enough for TM's it's certainly good enough for me! And since I am having trouble standing up my landings, this solves that problem."

This is EXACTLY why I chose to do butt landings few times when I flared too late for a standup landing. I thought "hey tandems must do it because it is the safest way to land". I am a little horrified about the consequences I have just read about. With SO much for an AFF/PFF student to deal with, learn, remember etc. it wasn't because Im an idiot, just never thought through that part of the landing. I also did mention to an instructor that I stuck my feet out in front of me because I flared late and not one tip about not doing it. A second time that I did this was because I had to land in some tall grass, and told the coach that because I couldn't judge depth because of the grass I kicked my feet up. He didn't seem bothered by the actions or offer any warnings.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Sep 4, 2013, 7:47 AM
Post #25 of 28 (2912 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Danger of butt landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

nigel99 wrote:
People forget that when a tandem does a butt slide, the instructor is actually highly experienced. Newbie's trying base ball slides and butt slides simply don't have the experience to do it safely.

I started on rounds and had PLF's drummed into me, far more thoroughly than anybody has nowadays. I honestly believe that your average jumper nowadays doesn't know 'how' to do a PLF properly and it isn't second nature due to minimal training during AFF.

I also believe that PLF's and how they are taught need to be completely re-thought. The old rounds came straight down and a PLF is well suited to that, a modern canopy has significant forward speed and I think something based on a martial arts or gymnastics roll would be better suited. BUT all those rolls take significant practice to master, not 30 minutes during an AFF course. Look at the rolls the guys doing Parkour are doing on their big jumps, they are very different to a PLF, to me it appears a good way to go, not that I have the training or knowledge to even begin to try one myself.

I won't comment on gymnastics rolls since I do not know how to do them. However, I do not believe a martial arts roll is the answer. It's hard to describe after fifteen years, but I was taught to do a martial arts roll over my shoulder. Combine that with a high forward and downward speed resulting from a poor or nonexistent flare and it seems like a recipy for a broken neck. I was also taught to slap the ground with my arm to lose energy from my fall after being thrown by another MA student. I would not recommend that in skydiving.

So I teach the PLF. If the forward speed is high, simply keep rolling after your PLF until you stop.


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