Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved?

 


EtherPilot

Aug 24, 2013, 3:56 PM
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Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? Can't Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/31/bill-booth-skydiving_n_3683967.html

At the 1:34 mark you'll notice the black square cutaway handle is actually part of the harness strap/riser cover. If I'm flubbing the nomenclature then I apologize. I've thought about this over and over and it made me think of soldiers who place inverted t-handle knives on their chest rigs. They do this because it's easy to to reach for and present one of those knives. I have the exact setup on my backpack and whenever I need my little Cold Steel knife, I always draw it without looking at it.

This mockup in the Huff Post design....is it an old design? It seems like a good idea to me. I am not a biomedical engineer or a physical therapist but I would also wonder if the Huff Post design doesn't give a skydiver more ability to pull harder on the cutaway handle. The Huff Post mockup cutaway design would be like a pull up using much of the upper back muscles, while the down-low cutaway handle on current rigs seems to be more about tricep strength. Also, placing the cutaway handle higher at least would give the skydiver more ability to pull the entire cutaway cable system out in one stroke versus possibly having to use both hands to yank the yellow cord all the way out once it was almost completely out.

What interests me most about skydiving gear is the location of the cutaway and reserve handles, and the shape of the handles. While I am a total newbie, naive AFF student who can't even afford to keep up with AFF right now I would like to put forth the thought that in some way the cutaway and reserve handle systems will be improved at some point, so why not at least start discussing that now.

That said, why aren't cutaway handles and reserve handles up high near the 3-ring system like the cutaway handle is in the Huff Post mockup? Thanks.


rifleman  (Student)

Aug 24, 2013, 4:16 PM
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...iving_n_3683967.html

Clickified


chemist  (A License)

Aug 24, 2013, 7:23 PM
Post #3 of 15 (2552 views)
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

why do you need to have immediate access to a cold steel knife? Are people trying to kill you?


excaza  (C License)

Aug 24, 2013, 8:39 PM
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

EtherPilot wrote:
The Huff Post mockup cutaway design would be like a pull up using much of the upper back muscles, while the down-low cutaway handle on current rigs seems to be more about tricep strength.
I think that's backwards.

Remember that you're pushing your handles down, so moving the handles up to shoulder level is going to make it a two stage process. First stage is going to be almost all triceps to move your lower arm into a strong second stage pushing position. Either that or you're going to have to do some weird arm rotation to clear your handles. Either way, I'm going to get a far stronger & faster (the important one) push down with the handles where they are currently.

Not to mention a handle up on the shoulder like that is going to be super easy to snag on things.


ChrisD  (No License)

Aug 25, 2013, 10:51 AM
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

If freefall lasted five min we would have more babies....

C


councilman24  (D 8631)

Aug 25, 2013, 11:07 AM
Post #6 of 15 (2078 views)
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never seen that animation before but it is a two point release rather than a single handle for both sides. I use something very similar on an intentional cutaway system only the handle is on the riser.

I believe this is just a simplified animation to make it obvious to non skydivers. I wouldn't but a hole in my main lift web, I wouldn't have two handles instead of one.

This is just an functional illustration, not a design.

We used to have T handles for reserves, they were called blast handles.
http://www.worthpoint.com/...ute-packs-w-ejection
Best image I can find. Long ago determined to not be the best idea for skydiving.

Get a little more experience and knowledge before you start designing you rig.Wink


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 25, 2013, 11:29 AM
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

That AutoCAD drawing is rather crude, with several structural errors.
Which muscle you need is irrelevant, because pull-force on a 3-Ring should not exceed 5 pounds. If pull-force exceeds 5 pounds, then your cables are filthy and you have bigger problems (e.g. jumping in dusty conditions, but never cleaning your cables).
IOW 3-Ring cables are like machine guns: in that they rarely jam as long as they are clean and properly oiled.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 25, 2013, 11:37 AM
Post #8 of 15 (2048 views)
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Re: [EtherPilot] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

Over the years, we have experimented with a lot of different release systems and handles. The current handle configuration is the result of many deaths and more "close-calls."
IOW The current handle configuration is "the least of the evils." Canopy release and reserve ripcord handles have not changed since the mid-1980s.
During the early 1990s, the skydiving industry standardized on BOC main deployment.
Now compare accident, incident and malfunction rates (see United States Parachute Association Annual Fatality Summaries) between the 1970s and the 1990s. You will find far fewer low-pull/low-pull deaths since 1990s.

For example, a 3-Ring system requires a pull of less than 5 pounds to release. That is why 3-Ring handles still have "antiquated" Velcro, to increase the pull-force to the point that they rarely fall off accidentally.


g2gjump  (B License)

Aug 25, 2013, 4:54 PM
Post #9 of 15 (1916 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

riggerrob wrote:
Over the years, we have experimented with a lot of different release systems and handles. The current handle configuration is the result of many deaths and more "close-calls."
IOW The current handle configuration is "the least of the evils." Canopy release and reserve ripcord handles have not changed since the mid-1980s.
During the early 1990s, the skydiving industry standardized on BOC main deployment.
Now compare accident, incident and malfunction rates (see United States Parachute Association Annual Fatality Summaries) between the 1970s and the 1990s. You will find far fewer low-pull/low-pull deaths since 1990s.

For example, a 3-Ring system requires a pull of less than 5 pounds to release. That is why 3-Ring handles still have "antiquated" Velcro, to increase the pull-force to the point that they rarely fall off accidentally.

This is a little off topic but Rob i think you can answer it.

I recall seeing a rig that had the cutaway and reserve handles above the chest strap. I wanna say it was a naro or a clone of a vector/talon.

Do you have an idea what it was?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Aug 25, 2013, 5:45 PM
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Re: [g2gjump] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi g2g,

Quote:
Do you have an idea what it was?

Two rigs come to mind.

The early Centaurus rigs built by Centaurus Corp. had them that way. I do not know if the NAA Centaurus rigs have them that way.

The EOS by Para-Flite had/has them that way.

JerryBaumchen


mattjw916  (D License)

Aug 25, 2013, 5:48 PM
Post #11 of 15 (1865 views)
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Re: [g2gjump] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

Telesis with an SOS?

http://www.parachutesaustralia.com/s2/prod_telesis.php

Not exactly the same thing but that was the first thing that came to mind...


g2gjump  (B License)

Aug 25, 2013, 6:28 PM
Post #12 of 15 (1825 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

JerryBaumchen wrote:
Hi g2g,

Quote:
Do you have an idea what it was?

Two rigs come to mind.

The early Centaurus rigs built by Centaurus Corp. had them that way. I do not know if the NAA Centaurus rigs have them that way.

The EOS by Para-Flite had/has them that way.

JerryBaumchen

I just downloaded the EOS manual and it was the rig I was thinking of. Thanks Jerry!


grue  (D License)

Aug 25, 2013, 8:30 PM
Post #13 of 15 (1747 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

mattjw916 wrote:
Telesis with an SOS?

http://www.parachutesaustralia.com/s2/prod_telesis.php

Not exactly the same thing but that was the first thing that came to mind...

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate the fact that those exist and are still being manufactured. There is absolutely no reason to be training people on gear that is substantially dissimilar to what they will actually use unless they are at a staticline DZ.


g2gjump  (B License)

Aug 25, 2013, 8:37 PM
Post #14 of 15 (1730 views)
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Re: [grue] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

grue wrote:
mattjw916 wrote:
Telesis with an SOS?

http://www.parachutesaustralia.com/s2/prod_telesis.php

Not exactly the same thing but that was the first thing that came to mind...

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate the fact that those exist and are still being manufactured. There is absolutely no reason to be training people on gear that is substantially dissimilar to what they will actually use unless they are at a staticline DZ.

Unsure

Those exist for various reasons besides staticline dzs.


grue  (D License)

Aug 25, 2013, 9:02 PM
Post #15 of 15 (1703 views)
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Re: [g2gjump] Can/should the cutaway/reserve handles be moved? [In reply to] Can't Post

g2gjump wrote:

Those exist for various reasons besides staticline dzs.

To be clear. I am taking issue with nonstandard handle types and placements. I have no issue with SOS systems in a general sense.

I would be very interested to hear good reasons why someone would use a high-placed chest-mounted ripcord for main deployment as a student.

If a student is doing AFF, he should be using gear as similar as possible to a real-world sport rig.

If a student is doing static line, he should transition as quickly as possible to gear as similar as possible to a real-world sport rig.


(This post was edited by grue on Aug 25, 2013, 9:05 PM)



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