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Vector closing sequence

 

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Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 1, 2005, 10:52 PM
Post #1 of 27 (8172 views)
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Vector closing sequence Can't Post

attached is a copy of an image from the Vector 3/Micron owners manual.
It shows the main container closed ready to close the pin protector.
the gromets are nowhere near aligned.
On my Jav that I curreently own, the gromets are aligned when closed corectly.
So the question is when my Vector gets here, should the gromets be that far apart when closed??
Attachments: vector closing gromets.jpg (51.6 KB)


genitor  (D License)

Mar 1, 2005, 11:05 PM
Post #2 of 27 (8104 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

It's designed like that.

The manual for the Vector 3 is on Relative Workshop's website. Check it out. In the section on packing/closing the main container, it mentions that the grommets will be offset, and tells you the procedure for determining the proper loop length.


PD126r  (D 48025)

Mar 2, 2005, 1:51 AM
Post #3 of 27 (8065 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Here you go:
http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tech_closingseq.html
To sum it up: "the binding tape of both side flaps is lined up"
Congrats on your new rig dude! You're gonna love it!


cheneyneel  (D 26207)

Mar 2, 2005, 9:42 AM
Post #4 of 27 (7947 views)
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Re: [PD126r] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Both my Microns are similar to that yes... you will see that closing it too tight will slightly effect the way the container looks when closed but does not effect function... One good thing about this is that the V3's are able to handle different size canopies without missing a beat with the length of the closing loop...


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 29, 2013, 9:44 AM
Post #5 of 27 (7377 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Squeak wrote:
attached is a copy of an image from the Vector 3/Micron owners manual.
It shows the main container closed ready to close the pin protector.
the gromets are nowhere near aligned.
On my Jav that I curreently own, the gromets are aligned when closed corectly.
So the question is when my Vector gets here, should the gromets be that far apart when closed??

I dug this one up because of a couple of concerns about Vectors (VIII, Microns,) that I have seen lately...

The offset is to ensure that the final flap, the pin protector, the top flap, etc,... fit's into its' pocket.

I have seen a couple of V3's with smaller than design main canopies installed and the users have drastically shortened the main closing loop. Consequenses of this were that the "Main pin cover" gets pinched by the side flaps. One container had visible indentations on both the main pin flap cover and the piping on the left and right side flaps.

To me this begs the question, that this increases the potential for a PC in tow if you have an unstable opening.

The other thing I witnessed of late, regarding the fact that on these containers the grommets are not designed to line up, was the fact that some packers, in the effort to get the grommets to line up,...shortened the closing loop....there was no washer on the loop, (it wasn't necessary,) and the closing loop promptly pulled thru when the container was thrown on the rack hitting the side of the container...This could have happened in the aircraft! The well intentioned individuals thought that the tension was too loose on the closing loop!!! So they shortened it, no washer, dosent need a washer with the low tension when everything is properly sized. Double overhand knot, or I use a triple overhand knot on my closing loop. Or get a washer and make sure to check it for wear on a regular basis...

Anyways with the increased tension caused by the shorter loop, it pulled thru its' grommet....

"We wanted it to look normal..." was what the person said regarding the fact that they didn't understand why the grommets didn't line up!

The UPT manual states that the closing loop should be adjusted to no more than 12 lbs of force max! But the min is left up to the user, the min force is enough to keep everything in its place. There is no real recommended min pin force for the main loop.

As you can see, if you use a non-recommended size main for your particular Micron or V3 you run some risks that may in fact affect performance.

C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jul 29, 2013, 9:46 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 29, 2013, 10:19 PM
Post #6 of 27 (7114 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Now you're suggesting not using a washer on your closing loop????
Your level of knowledge about this sport is underwhelming!
ChrisD wrote:
Squeak wrote:
attached is a copy of an image from the Vector 3/Micron owners manual.
It shows the main container closed ready to close the pin protector.
the gromets are nowhere near aligned.
On my Jav that I curreently own, the gromets are aligned when closed corectly.
So the question is when my Vector gets here, should the gromets be that far apart when closed??

I dug this one up because of a couple of concerns about Vectors (VIII, Microns,) that I have seen lately...

The offset is to ensure that the final flap, the pin protector, the top flap, etc,... fit's into its' pocket.

I have seen a couple of V3's with smaller than design main canopies installed and the users have drastically shortened the main closing loop. Consequenses of this were that the "Main pin cover" gets pinched by the side flaps. One container had visible indentations on both the main pin flap cover and the piping on the left and right side flaps.

To me this begs the question, that this increases the potential for a PC in tow if you have an unstable opening.

The other thing I witnessed of late, regarding the fact that on these containers the grommets are not designed to line up, was the fact that some packers, in the effort to get the grommets to line up,...shortened the closing loop....there was no washer on the loop, (it wasn't necessary,) and the closing loop promptly pulled thru when the container was thrown on the rack hitting the side of the container...This could have happened in the aircraft! The well intentioned individuals thought that the tension was too loose on the closing loop!!! So they shortened it, no washer, dosent need a washer with the low tension when everything is properly sized. Double overhand knot, or I use a triple overhand knot on my closing loop. Or get a washer and make sure to check it for wear on a regular basis...

Anyways with the increased tension caused by the shorter loop, it pulled thru its' grommet....

"We wanted it to look normal..." was what the person said regarding the fact that they didn't understand why the grommets didn't line up!

The UPT manual states that the closing loop should be adjusted to no more than 12 lbs of force max! But the min is left up to the user, the min force is enough to keep everything in its place. There is no real recommended min pin force for the main loop.

As you can see, if you use a non-recommended size main for your particular Micron or V3 you run some risks that may in fact affect performance.

C


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 30, 2013, 5:17 AM
Post #7 of 27 (6960 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

"I" believe "I" made my point clear that "I" use a double knot on my main closing loop, on my V3. If "I" am using a spectra line material, on my main closing loop "I" use a triple knot.

You do whatever yo want... Smile

If you want to show me that UPT requires a washer on the main closing loop, and or want to show me that there is some min tension required on a Vector container, the new ones, I'm all ears...If you want to show me the UPT procedure on how to set your closing loop on a Micron, again I'm all ears...



The point is that I have seen a large number of individuals that have not read the UPT manual that comes with their containers. They have shortened their main closing loops in deference to the manufacturers instructions. This is not without consequences...

I get along just fine without using a washer on my closing loop, just as I get along just fine without using a washer on my "hesitation" loop, on the reserve flaps.

C

I'm suggesting that everyone else check their own equipment:

If you use a washer,...that you check your loop for wear.

That Microns have offset main flap grommets for a reason and that the grommets don't line up for a reason.

That way too many have worn out pilot chutes in use, and the vast majority of people using them do not know when their PC has reached the end of it's useful life.

And additionally way too many don't understand the amount of tension or how to set it on their main closing loops. I've seen way too many pins with far too much tension because there seems to be some kind of stereotype that because if the pin dislodges, releases, when you pick your rig up by the bridal ...then that's ok?? It's not....

So if yo have something constructive to say I'm all ears????


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jul 30, 2013, 5:25 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 30, 2013, 7:52 AM
Post #8 of 27 (6879 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
If you want to show me that UPT requires a washer on the main closing loop, and or want to show me that there is some min tension required on a Vector container, the new ones, I'm all ears

Ok, I'll bite -- Your post did get me to go look through a recent Vector manual. (Oct 2010, Rev 1, apparently the latest). While some manuals do get pretty old before updating, it is good to see that this manual has a lot of little updates -- there are some things UPT recommended jumpers do with their gear in the past, that they don't now.

While washers aren't mentioned in the text, the replacement parts section shows a washer:



Most people are used to using a washer, and it seems important when using standard type IIa with a single overhand knot under a #0 grommet. As you point out, other bigger knots are possible, and nothing in the manual says a washer is mandatory.

But unless a jumper knows very specific techniques that make a washer redundant, I wouldn't want to tell them that you don't need a washer for their closing loop!

I personally don't see any issue with wear from washers on the closing loop... but I make sure the rounded edge of the washer is against the knot. You may notice that the sharper stamped edge of the washer is against the knot in the photo, which isn't what I like to see, even if any wear is likely to be very slow...


(This post was edited by pchapman on Jul 30, 2013, 7:54 AM)
Attachments: vector-main-loop-from-manual.jpg (14.9 KB)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jul 30, 2013, 9:43 AM
Post #9 of 27 (6793 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want to jump a rig without a washer on the main closing loop you will need to do it at a DZ other that the one I jump at. Why would you choose to do that? Washers are the standard. Why would you come here and encourage others to do that?


pnuwin  (D 112233)

Jul 30, 2013, 9:47 PM
Post #10 of 27 (6634 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

The staging loop no longer needs a washer because the wear can only be addressed during a reserve repack. Important to realize that this loop does NOT hold the rig together and doesn't experience the forces that a main or reserve closing loop would have pulling on them.


DivingWombat  (B License)

Jul 31, 2013, 1:27 AM
Post #11 of 27 (6572 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't believe it. The guy who destorys everyone who just moves an inch away from any given rule or standard is writing several lines about not using a washer on a closing loop.

This little washer is about safety and a whole load could depend on it. You might reconsider your post...


jono  (C 298258)

Jul 31, 2013, 1:29 AM
Post #12 of 27 (6571 views)
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Re:Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/...rve-Staging-Loop.pdf


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 31, 2013, 7:38 AM
Post #13 of 27 (6444 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

DivingWombat wrote:
I can't believe it. The guy who destorys everyone who just moves an inch away from any given rule or standard is writing several lines about not using a washer on a closing loop.

This little washer is about safety and a whole load could depend on it. You might reconsider your post...

At some point in time I'll take the time to state the obvious that many are overlooking at the moment. I'm more concerned about the mechanics of communication and the stereotypes that exsist about adjusting closing loops at the moment.

Here is just one post from 2004 from another that doesn't use a washer as well...

http://www.dropzone.com/...sing%20loop;#1282288

There is nothing new here.....
C


DivingWombat  (B License)

Jul 31, 2013, 8:37 AM
Post #14 of 27 (6398 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
DivingWombat wrote:
I can't believe it. The guy who destorys everyone who just moves an inch away from any given rule or standard is writing several lines about not using a washer on a closing loop.

This little washer is about safety and a whole load could depend on it. You might reconsider your post...

At some point in time I'll take the time to state the obvious that many are overlooking at the moment. I'm more concerned about the mechanics of communication and the stereotypes that exsist about adjusting closing loops at the moment.

Here is just one post from 2004 from another that doesn't use a washer as well...

http://www.dropzone.com/...sing%20loop;#1282288

There is nothing new here.....
C

Thanks for the link.
My washer has no sharp edges. I replace my loop at around 30 jumps because it's worn anyway. I've never seen any damage coming from the (my) washer.

I strongly assume that the quality of the washers varies quite a lot. Otherwise we would hear more often about broken loops caused sharp washers.

I am more concerned about loops without enough tension and way too worn (50% of the webbing cut) loops still in use.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Aug 1, 2013, 7:52 PM
Post #15 of 27 (6119 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, but there's nothing in that old post about NOT using a washer, just talks about inspecting . The idea of not using a washer is just plain dangerous and foolish. The fact that your knot only setup pulled through the grommet should have shown you that.
ChrisD wrote:
DivingWombat wrote:
I can't believe it. The guy who destorys everyone who just moves an inch away from any given rule or standard is writing several lines about not using a washer on a closing loop.

This little washer is about safety and a whole load could depend on it. You might reconsider your post...

At some point in time I'll take the time to state the obvious that many are overlooking at the moment. I'm more concerned about the mechanics of communication and the stereotypes that exsist about adjusting closing loops at the moment.

Here is just one post from 2004 from another that doesn't use a washer as well...

http://www.dropzone.com/...sing%20loop;#1282288

There is nothing new here.....
C


ChrisD  (No License)

Aug 2, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #16 of 27 (5970 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

ufk22 wrote:
Sorry, but there's nothing in that old post about NOT using a washer, just talks about inspecting .


This is what I'm referring to in the "Old Post" I take this as that individual isn't using a washer either...
Quote:
I'm not using the washer with the spectra loop as it's thick enough that the knot isn't going to go through the grommet, but those of you who have been using your loops awhile definitely need to check this one out.



I want to thank you for your concern for my safety, what you don't know is that the grommet on my V3 is small. Small grommets are a pain in the ass for the manufacturer to install. In fact installing grommets is a pain for any sized grommet. In fact I have been experimenting with not using a grommet / flap for the base of the main closing loop and have been looking at using a double ended finger trapped and sewn loop. That way all I need would be a sewn loop tape that I can pass the closing loop thru and the closing loop would pass thru its other closed end. But that is just me. If there was away to get rig of grommets alltoghter??? Considering the fact that the main canopy is what determines the tension and its' relationship with a properly sized container. I want to get rid of Cypress washers period and find a better way. If fixed length loops are the way to do this then so be it, but there are consequences...


This is akin to the idea of passing the bridal thru itself and the bag so that we can eliminate the rapide link. But then we get into the speed difference of changing a larkshead v metal link issue....

The problem is when other's see something and try to replicate it with out an understanding of the whole picture. Understand that just about any knot can pull thru a grommet if:

The knot is too small. (How do you tell what is or isn't too small.)

The grommet is too large.

Pulling on a loop with too much force.

(You have seen the knot used on the "Cypress Washer? Have you ever seen a Cypress washer with cracks in it?)


My concern with starting this was to illustrate what I and more than a few others see as a potential problem with rigs that use a fixed length main closing loop and unknowing individuals start changing stuff. Like the size of their main. Or they unknowingly start adjusting their closing loop and they don't really know all of the parameters and issues with their actions.

I saw a rig that someone had adjusted their closing loop too small, the top flap now is bowed and the rig has indentations that in the very rare case of a out of position deployment I have a concern that the top flap may hang up. I now see many rigs with bowed top flaps. So to me this is a concern that is wide spread and deserving of some attention.

In the other case I saw a packer pack a rig by pulling on the closing loop with the tool, and also by using their feet on the back of the rig. When the rig was tossed to the floor at that moment the loop pulled thru!!! Imagine the look of surprise on everyone's face. Imagine me standing there trying to explain that the loop didn't need to be shortened in the first place, that the manufacturer (sun path products) has a fixed length recommendation. On the other hand everyone also discovered that that RIGGER had neglected to use a washer on that rig. That rig had been in use without a washer for months! No one knew! Because of the decreased tension, at the manufacturers suggested length it worked just fine. (bit of a time bomb in a sense though!!) Until an unknowing packer, who in their opinion, deemed that the loop was too long....talk about ironyCrazy.


There is a balance here, do I keep my mouth shut out of fear that some may start a practice that if they are not aware of all of the consequences, may lead them to do something that may not be safe? Or to I point out a trend that rigs, in large numbers have ridiculously high tensions because it is better to be too tight than too loose?

Or is it better that everyone raises their game so to speak, learn something, and set the right tension for your particular rig in the first place?

There are a lot of us, (I stand on the shoulders of giants by the way,) that want our gear to be 100 percent bullet proof. This grommet thing has cost lives in the past. This washer thing has cost lives. I am well aware that knots can pull through washers. I am well aware that knots can slip apart. I am advocating the right materials, the right tension, and the right knot in the right place. I spend a lot of time at this stuff....


Now what the masses do with this is what keeps me up at night....

C

thanks....

I want to remind you that the OP's question was how far apart should the grommets be....


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Aug 2, 2013, 8:32 AM)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Aug 2, 2013, 10:11 AM
Post #17 of 27 (5884 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I want to thank you for your concern for my safety, what you don't know is that the grommet on my V3 is small. Small grommets are a pain in the ass for the manufacturer to install. In fact installing grommets is a pain for any sized grommet. In fact I have been experimenting with not using a grommet / flap for the base of the main closing loop and have been looking at using a double ended finger trapped and sewn loop. That way all I need would be a sewn loop tape that I can pass the closing loop thru and the closing loop would pass thru its other closed end. But that is just me. If there was away to get rig of grommets alltoghter??? Considering the fact that the main canopy is what determines the tension and its' relationship with a properly sized container. I want to get rid of Cypress washers period and find a better way. If fixed length loops are the way to do this then so be it, but there are consequences...


I don't really understand your concerns about this so I will just say that your grommets are not particularly small, they are size 0 stainless steel like every other rig for at least 20 years. They are easy like pies for manufacturers to intall, and are not that difficult for riggers to replace.

Cypress washers aren't used on mains, so I don't know why you bring this up. In fact very little of what you are saying makes much sense at all. But maybe that's just me. Please understand that the only reason I an even bothering to reply to this is out of concern that you will convince someone else that they can skip using a washer. There is no problem to be solved as far as I can see. But as you are fond of saying, "maybe that's just me"


ChrisD  (No License)

Aug 2, 2013, 11:20 AM
Post #18 of 27 (5858 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Ken, there is nothing wrong with anyone's efforts to find a better way. There is a problem when more than a few are unaware of some of the newer design features of their rigs.

The new Vectors, that are not so new,... have offset grommets, the offset is determined by the length of the closing loop as you know. But my concern is the vast numbers of individuals that own these containers as well as Oddyssey types and leave everything up to their rigger. I see this as a problem.



And I completely agree with you when you say: "Please understand that the only reason I am even bothering to reply to this is out of concern that you will convince someone else that they can skip using a washer." I too worry about this.

But again this is the gear and rigging forum.

And I as well as many others depend upon your wisdom and experience to point this out and or any other issue that may arise. In a sense you are the opposing viewpoint that in fact may save someone's ass someday.

Sometimes I get a little carried away and bring up multiple thoughts on the same page. And yes I understand this may be a little confusing, sorryBlush.

Perhaps I should keep my gear changing thoughts to myself or perhaps a new posting making it perfectly clear that I'm off on some kind of tangent would be a better course of action to follow.

I mention grommets again and again, because of the Reflex fatalities. Did the grommets come that way from the factory or did the user bend them and then they went un-noticed? It is worth pissing people off to mention this again and again, and if it saves someone's ass cause now they know a bent grommet is nothing to be trifiled with,...then so be it. I do believe this is worth doing....

On the other hand I really do like the idea of a larkshead to closing loop design for nothing other than it simplifies manufacturing steps and simplifies design. It's not a problem, just speaking out loud about trying to make things more bullet proof than they currently are. Opp there I go again....

Now to answeeere the OP's original question:
Quote:
So the question is when my Vector gets here, should the gromets be that far apart when closed??

Yes.

The main closing loop on your New Vector will have to be long enough to allow the "main pin cover" to fully fit into its' corresponding slot, while at the same time still provide enough tension for proper main pin retention. Page 69 of the current Micron V3 manual. I would have posted the page from the pdf but I don't know how to do that...

On a personal note Squeek, you may find that at this length the main closing loop tension to be less than some people are used to. In other words when closing your pack job you might find it easy to close. The caution and really big caution is if you are using a main that is smaller than recommended from the manufacturer. Yes I know this was mentioned prior, but I wanted to add what I have experience out in the field so that it might spare you some of the grief that some have already experienced with this fine container. Congrats by the way.

If anyone has in fact a current procedure for determining the proper loop length. This would be very nice. Perhaps someone can call UPT and ask???


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Aug 2, 2013, 11:27 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 3, 2013, 2:06 PM
Post #19 of 27 (5697 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

"... Sometimes I get a little carried away and bring up multiple thoughts on the same page. And yes I understand this may be a little confusing, sorryBlush. ...
I mention grommets again and again, because of the Reflex fatalities. Did the grommets come that way from the factory or did the user bend them and then they went un-noticed? ..."

..................................................................................

Agreed!
May I suggest that two or three short posts will get your message across better?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 3, 2013, 2:31 PM
Post #20 of 27 (5687 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

"... Sometimes I get a little carried away and bring up multiple thoughts on the same page. And yes I understand this may be a little confusing, sorryBlush.
... I mention grommets again and again, because of the Reflex fatalities. Did the grommets come that way from the factory or did the user bend them and then they went un-noticed? ..."
..................................................................................

Ah!
"Grommet Mania 2000!"
What a confusing winter that was!

I was working in the Square One Loft when James Martin impacted less than a mile away. Thank God the upper winds were strong from the Northwest that day ... Otherwise James might have impacted on me!

James' problem started with grommets that were loose before they left the Reflex factory. Yes! The Reflex factory had a quality-control problem with not setting grommets tight enough.
However, James' death pointed out an industry-wide problem. Since no-one had problems with fat Dacron suspension lines snagging on grommets, we ignored the problem for decades. As main suspension lines (500 pound Spectra, Vectran, HMA, etc.) had gotten thinner and thinner, they increased the risk of snagging on loose grommets but no-one had updated tolerances for setting grommets.
This was also during the period when container manufacturers were converting from soft brass grommets to stiffer stainless steel grommets. While it is difficult to bend stainless steel grommets, older, softer brass grommets can easily be bent by "overly-enthusiastic-packers." That bent-up edge could easily snag a thin suspension line.
Before James died, customers grumbled about me charging a dollar or two to re-set loose grommets. I have re-set loose grommets on ALL types of containers. After James' death, they shut-up and cheerfully paid the extra dollar or two.

A month after James' death, a Javelin-wearer died of a similar problem in Arizona and the whole industry responded by modifying grommets in main containers.

The Dolphin factory issued a Service Bulletin adding a rubber washer around the grommet in the main top flap.

The Javelin factory issued a Service Bulletin saying to "hide" the grommet in the main loop anchor (similar configuration to Vector 1 and 2).

The Reflex factory issued a Service Bulletin adding a layer of padding to their inner top flap.

The Vector factory issued a Service Bulletin saying to remove the main loop anchor form the bottom wall of the (Vector 1 and 2 )reserve container and move the closing loop to the bottom flap. Then the Vector factory rescinded the SB a few weeks later.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Aug 8, 2013, 9:14 AM
Post #21 of 27 (5082 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

In other words, the biding tapes of the West and East flaps have to overlap. The flap set up on the picture if OK.


ChrisD  (No License)

Aug 9, 2013, 7:37 AM
Post #22 of 27 (4859 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

gowlerk wrote:
If you want to jump a rig without a washer on the main closing loop you will need to do it at a DZ other that the one I jump at. Why would you choose to do that? Washers are the standard. Why would you come here and encourage others to do that?

I thought about this all week, I've been traveling again,...

Yes there is no good reason to not use a washer, the size "0" isn't small enough, and the potential considering the large numbers of individuals that don't understand their gear is huge.

I have often spoken about system factors and the next breakthrough in safety will be recognizing and accepting the system point of view.

Part of this is the effects of peer pressure! We are social beings and what we see and how others around us act is a huge factor in promoting safety and also the negative side of things in perpetuating stereotypes that do nothing for us...

So I have succumbed to peer pressure, thank you and have reinstalled the washer and also using just an overhand knot. I think the figure 8 knots and the double triple knots don't load up enough and can back off over time.

Peer pressure is a good thing. I'm surprised no one mentioned the question:

"What do you gain by not using a knot?" This is the real question...

Thanks again for the humble pie and your concern for everyone, this is how it's supposed to work.


I can only wonder if that recent tail strike could have been prevented by a little more peer pressure?

C


jumpwally  (D License)

Aug 13, 2013, 9:04 AM
Post #23 of 27 (4612 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Peer pressure works equally well in the opposite direction as well,,,we've all seen the downside of that,,,,,meanwhile 20 some posts could have been avoided above just by calling the manuf and asking.....WinkCool


ChrisD  (No License)

Sep 13, 2013, 6:19 PM
Post #24 of 27 (4003 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

ufk22 wrote:
Now you're suggesting not using a washer on your closing loop????
Your level of knowledge about this sport is underwhelming!
C



I couldn't resist.....Angelic

did you see the Parachutist 647 page 65????

The article about how closing loops can pull thru the washers?????


Kind of an "underwhelming" article don't yo thingk????

Angelic

C


ufk22  (D 16168)

Dec 27, 2013, 9:55 AM
Post #25 of 27 (2666 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Vector closing sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
gowlerk wrote:
If you want to jump a rig without a washer on the main closing loop you will need to do it at a DZ other that the one I jump at. Why would you choose to do that? Washers are the standard. Why would you come here and encourage others to do that?

I thought about this all week, I've been traveling again,...

Yes there is no good reason to not use a washer, the size "0" isn't small enough, and the potential considering the large numbers of individuals that don't understand their gear is huge.

I have often spoken about system factors and the next breakthrough in safety will be recognizing and accepting the system point of view.

Part of this is the effects of peer pressure! We are social beings and what we see and how others around us act is a huge factor in promoting safety and also the negative side of things in perpetuating stereotypes that do nothing for us...

So I have succumbed to peer pressure, thank you and have reinstalled the washer and also using just an overhand knot. I think the figure 8 knots and the double triple knots don't load up enough and can back off over time.

Peer pressure is a good thing. I'm surprised no one mentioned the question:

"What do you gain by not using a knot?" This is the real question...

Thanks again for the humble pie and your concern for everyone, this is how it's supposed to work.


I can only wonder if that recent tail strike could have been prevented by a little more peer pressure?

C
this is an update for anyone reading this thread and considering chrisd's advice.
We have just found out that Chris doesn't own a rig (with or without a washer), has NEVER made even one solo skydive, did one tandem for Father's Day in 2012. That is his sole skydiving experience. Do not take anything he says as anything more than the SAS that it is.
I would just ignore him, but he is constantly putting forward bad, dangerous advice while not having a clue.


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