Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Relative Work:
4-way vocabulary question

 


StreetScooby

Jul 21, 2013, 4:02 PM
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4-way vocabulary question Can't Post

I'm in need of some unambiguous vocabulary...

Consider the two basic forms of a donut: left-hand, right-hand. Is it reasonable to call these "isomers"? Is there a better word that would sit well on the tongue of most skydivers?

Next, consider the various formations within an "isomer", e.g., the conventional build that we'll call the A-build. Then, another build with the skydivers in different relative slots, say the B-build. What's a good word to call this collection? Can't use isomers, because that's already taken Wink

Thanks for any thoughts/feedback.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 21, 2013, 6:25 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it reasonable to call these "isomers"?

Reasonable? I suppose. Practical? Open to opinion. Tell you what, if that gains traction, I propose we call freeflying formations "free radicals".


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jul 21, 2013, 7:27 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually just use "standard" and "alternate."

Not particularly creative but people seem to understand it.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 22, 2013, 7:57 AM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

StreetScooby wrote:
I'm in need of some unambiguous vocabulary...

Consider the two basic forms of a donut: left-hand, right-hand. Is it reasonable to call these "isomers"? Is there a better word that would sit well on the tongue of most skydivers?

Next, consider the various formations within an "isomer", e.g., the conventional build that we'll call the A-build. Then, another build with the skydivers in different relative slots, say the B-build. What's a good word to call this collection? Can't use isomers, because that's already taken Wink

Thanks for any thoughts/feedback.

They're mirror images. Everyone in their slots, but building the point "reversed".

You'll see a few of those from European teams who train from Porters. Look at Hayabusa's video from the wrold's last year.


Machupo  (B 37614)

Jul 22, 2013, 9:44 AM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

StreetScooby wrote:
Is it reasonable to call these "isomers"?

No one will want to perform the rectus configuration, and everyone will want to be on team sinister Laugh


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 22, 2013, 10:19 AM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

A-slot LH donut
A-slot RH donut
B-slot LH donut
B-slot RH donut


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 22, 2013, 10:24 AM
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Re: [bob.dino] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

bob.dino wrote:
A-slot LH donut
A-slot RH donut
B-slot LH donut
B-slot RH donut

yes. But donuts are "funny" in the way that they can be described as RH or LH.


You can have mirror images pretty much everything. How would you describe a A slot "switched" D? A mirror image.

Hayabusa lost the worlds last year on their mirror image 2.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 22, 2013, 1:10 PM
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Re: [Remster] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

What hand are you taking the grip with? Simple Tongue


StreetScooby

Jul 22, 2013, 2:18 PM
Post #9 of 25 (4310 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, thanks for all of the feedback. Let me be a little clearer in what I'm trying to do. I'm playing around with a simple software system that will let me catalog all of the various permutations for 4-way formations. If you've ever made a living building software systems, you may agree with me that naming things can become very difficult. Coming up with meaningful and unambiguous names for objects/tables/etc. can be very challenging.

On that note, I'll start speaking in terms of database tables. Let's call the core table FORMATIONS. This table will contain a row:

FORMATIONS
1) DONUT

Now, I can have one child table off of FORMATIONS, or I can have two child tables off of FORMATIONS.

In the case of one child table, following Remster's feedback, we'll call it MIRRORS. This table would contain bob.dino's designations as follows:

FORMATIONS
1) DONUT

MIRRORS
1) A-slot LH donut
2) A-slot RH donut
3) B-slot LH donut
4) B-slot RH donut

Now, at the risk of getting pedantic about semantics, the A-slot and B-slot entries really aren't mirrors. Of course, we could live with that within reason.

Or, we could add a 2nd child table that will be called GEEIDONTKNOW for now, that would contain descriptive information about the A-slot and B-slot entries, while the MIRRORS table would simply contain LH donut and RH donut. Here's how that would look:

FORMATIONS
1) DONUT

MIRRORS
1) LH donut
2) RH donut

GEEIDONTKNOW
1) A-slot
2) B-slot

Would what be a good name for the second table GEEIDONTKNOW ?
Or, it that getting pendantic about semantics?

Ideally, the GUI for the software will let someone select an entry from the FORMATIONS drop-down. When they picked DONUT, the assoicated MIRRORS drop-down would have Left-Hand and Right-Hand. Then, the GEEIDONTKNOW drop-down would have A-slot and B-slot.

Hope this makes sense. Appreciate the feedback very much.

Thanks,


(This post was edited by StreetScooby on Jul 22, 2013, 2:29 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 22, 2013, 3:32 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

I see it more as a tree. Not sure how to represent it in a table format that translate into what ytou are doing...

Donut
A-Slot
Main
Mirror
B-Slot
Main
Mirror

and so on for all the formations...

Now, keep in mind that, in some cases, some block switches the front only (or sometimes the back only, tho most teams try and keep the memory up front). But with full slot-switches, and 1/2 switchers that can happen in the same draw, you just introduced a whole lot more formations to describe that just A and B slots.


StreetScooby

Jul 22, 2013, 3:51 PM
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Re: [Remster] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, putting this as a tree does eliminate the semantics issue. But, relational databases need tables... Smile. Let me rephrase the question, and see where it takes us....

I have a group of values: A-slot, B-slot, C-slot....
What would you call this group of values?

It wouldn't be "continuity", would it?


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 23, 2013, 12:33 AM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Variations.
One of the variations should be tagged as the standard 'straight-up' version.


StreetScooby

Jul 23, 2013, 3:17 AM
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Re: [bob.dino] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Variations.

I like that...

How would you describe a "continuity plan"?


StreetScooby

Jul 23, 2013, 3:26 AM
Post #14 of 25 (4125 views)
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Re: [Remster] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now, keep in mind that, in some cases, some block switches the front only (or sometimes the back only, tho most teams try and keep the memory up front). But with full slot-switches, and 1/2 switchers that can happen in the same draw, you just introduced a whole lot more formations to describe that just A and B slots.

So, now you see where I'm trying to head... Smile

Would it be reasonable to describe all of these other "variations" as C-slot, D-slot, etc.? Or, is there a better way to discuss/describe this?

BTW, how would you describe a "continuity plan"?

Thanks,


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 23, 2013, 7:36 AM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, a continuity plan is the list of A slot, and preferred b slot formations for all the pool.

IMO, if you're a weekend team, that's really all you need. Yes, there might be slightly quicker alternative formation to build if you change one of the formation, but that typically puts you out of wack for the rest of the dive, and when you only do 100 training jumps a year, it's better to take the slower A slot.

Through the years, the Airspeed / Fastrax plans have become the standard for most amateur teams.

This being said, I'm just a hack Smile


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 23, 2013, 10:48 AM
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Re: [Remster] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Remster wrote:
For me, a continuity plan is the list of A slot, and preferred b slot formations for all the pool.

this ^

and I keep the B slot 'options' to a minimum

then with that, we do have to multiply the set with:

1 - front piece switched
2 - back piece switched
3 - both pieces switched

(I do double switchers, not mirrors - mirrors mess with your brain)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 23, 2013, 11:15 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(I do double switchers, not mirrors - mirrors mess with your brain)

Yeah. And when you see one of the best teams in the world stick with what they know best (ie, the mirror from the otter standard when they train a RH door plane) when competing, I'll stay away from mirrors too!


StreetScooby

Jul 23, 2013, 11:39 AM
Post #18 of 25 (4010 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Question for you rehmwa,

What would you call the A-slot, B-slot, etc. collection?
Mirrors doesn't seem to be the correct word.

Thanks,


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

StreetScooby wrote:
Question for you rehmwa,

What would you call the A-slot, B-slot, etc. collection?
Mirrors doesn't seem to be the correct word.

Thanks,

Here's my thought. there are two descriptors: 1 - you have a standard continuity (typical slot assignments). 2 - And you can break from that continuity if you can train it.....:

1 - Under "standard" or "base" continuity
-"A Slots" = everyone in the 'typical' position for each block and random
-"B Slots" = would be when piece partners switch - three kinds:
---front piece B Slots,
---tail piece B Slots,
---both pieces in B Slots
but they would still follow the standard continuity, this just addresses that we have people change roles sometimes.

2 - then you'd have "alternates" or "options" if you choose to break the "standard" continuity
- an example would be a Crank - standard would be IC/OC in the cat, and alternate would be point/tail builds the cat. I have about 4 randoms and a couple blocks that we allow 'alternate' continuity if it's faster (not counting that I've already trained B slots). We can make exceptions to do others, but that's more than enough already.

A - sometimes it's quicker to put the OC on the head
C - sometimes it's quicker to put the OC outfacing
L - two kinds (standard is sidebody is IC on the point, option sidebody is tail on the IC - depends on the team which is standard and which is alternate)
N - as described

9 - anything goes, anything
22 - cat is: OC/tail standard, point/tail option (most teams I see have OC/IC cat which I agree is a good plan for standard too)

that's just us - lots of alternate options, but sometimes the quicker move is slower due to unfamiliarity.....so keep it simple
I love the concept of the team that can say anything goes for any block or random. But I think that's a special group of 4 people to be able to do it.



So you'd have a tree of standard continuity - with the slot switcher options nested under it.

And you have a selection of alternate configs that have the option to sprinkle in.

(I don't teach the alternates to new teams. Nor do I recommend the six switcher blocks either. I like to save those for teams that have members who have trained in multiple slots and have some experience first. It really helps)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 23, 2013, 12:14 PM)


StreetScooby

Jul 23, 2013, 12:52 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!


StreetScooby

Jul 23, 2013, 2:53 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

So, still churning over the vocabulary in my head...

For purposes of this discussion, the GUI (graphical user interface) will have three drop-down boxes:

1) Formations
2) Variations, or Continuity.
3) Mirrors

Once all three selections are made, a diagram will show up on the screen.

The more I think about this, the more I like Continuity (not to disparage bob.dino's input). Would I be wildly off base in anyone's mind if I did use Continuity?


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 27, 2013, 2:27 AM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

In my head, a variation is a specific way of tackling a single point from the divepool. Continuity is the set of variations you will consider when engineering your dives.


And don't worry about whether I might get offended if you choose different nomenclature. After all, there are only two hard problems in computer science: naming, cache invalidation, and off-by-one errors Cool.


StreetScooby

Jul 27, 2013, 4:49 AM
Post #23 of 25 (3659 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a good point re: continuity. Very much appreciate the feedback on that. I'll go with variation. Thanks! SmileCool


Ron

Jul 28, 2013, 5:12 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Left hand door - Left hand donut is 'A'.
Right hand door - Right hand donut is 'A'.

The reason is simple, the exit. A left grip donut is an easier launch from a left hand door than a right hand donut.

Most teams will have a continuity plan that will dictate what mirror is A or B. They develop this quickly.


marcandalysse  (C License)

Dec 9, 2013, 5:57 PM
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Re: [StreetScooby] 4-way vocabulary question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now, I can have one child table off of FORMATIONS, or I can have two child tables off of FORMATIONS.

Suggest that you take a database 101 course....apps programmers tend to overcomplicate data models.... Crazy



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