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Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries

 

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Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 15, 2013, 4:55 PM
Post #1 of 76 (10146 views)
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Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ij_gZ3GbE

Jumper gets temporarily knocked out during a tracking dive. Good awareness and skills by other jumpers (both BPA AFF?) who docked on to do what they could.


(This post was edited by cpoxon on Jul 15, 2013, 5:24 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 6:01 PM
Post #2 of 76 (9959 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

There were a couple of others on that dive that appeared to almost take someone out after others docked.

I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents. Given that docking isn't even intended, no pressure to get real close, I had not thought that collisions would be so risky. Perhaps it is because they attract large groups of low experience.


grue  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:14 PM
Post #3 of 76 (9773 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
There were a couple of others on that dive that appeared to almost take someone out

Saw that as well and was displeased.

This is the second skull-dock on a tracking dive in the last few weeks that has ended in an unconscious jumper. THis one turned out much better than the other.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #4 of 76 (9763 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents.

There's no need for them to be. Tracking dives are no different than any other jump. The skills of the jumpers need to match the difficulty of the plan.

Noobs should demonstrate their abilities in small groups - 2-ways if needed - before progressing to larger groups. It's about removing variables.

Whether tracking, FS, VFS, CF - whatever, it is imperative that we don't put people in the position to rely on luck or the skill of others. Doing so is the equivalent of group-think complacency. Complacency kills.

For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 16, 2013, 12:28 AM
Post #5 of 76 (9280 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
There were a couple of others on that dive that appeared to almost take someone out after others docked.

1:13... what was going through that person's mind?


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 16, 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #6 of 76 (9258 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?

No, sorry, I know nothing about it. Just saw it posted on Facebook.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 16, 2013, 2:05 AM
Post #7 of 76 (9160 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

cpoxon wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?

No, sorry, I know nothing about it. Just saw it posted on Facebook.

Bit of a learning question. It looks like the person on the right dumped for the individual. Any preference on deploying their main (as was done here) or their reserve?

I'm guessing that fully unconscious you would chose reserve, but I realise it isn't always that simple.


grue  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 3:07 AM
Post #8 of 76 (9092 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

nigel99 wrote:
cpoxon wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?

No, sorry, I know nothing about it. Just saw it posted on Facebook.

Bit of a learning question. It looks like the person on the right dumped for the individual. Any preference on deploying their main (as was done here) or their reserve?

I'm guessing that fully unconscious you would chose reserve, but I realise it isn't always that simple.

I'm just throwing spitballs here to see what'll stick, but possible (speculative) reasons:

1. He might have a bigger main than reserve. Pretty common, and most people who jump together frequently have some knowledge of what their buddies have in their rigs. If I'm unconscious I'll take the reserve because it's 30sqft bigger, but almost everyone I know is jumping a smaller reserve. I don't know what comes into play with crossbraced twitchy pocket rocket vs smaller reserve, hypothetically, but someone who jumps one of those might be able to chime in.

2. Familiarity. Someone who's just taken a solid whack to the head might be better off landing under a canopy they've had plenty of jumps with.

3. Muscle memory: If the main-side assist was an AFF-I, it could just be what he's used to doing.

4. Stability: Easier to deploy someone's main for him than his reserve, ESPECIALLY if he's got soft handles.

5. Possible neck injury: Main is likely to open more softly than a terminal reserve ride. That's really reaching, but possible.


DougH  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 6:38 AM
Post #9 of 76 (8655 views)
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Re: [grue] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

grue wrote:
I don't know what comes into play with crossbraced twitchy pocket rocket vs smaller reserve, hypothetically, but someone who jumps one of those might be able to chime in.

I will take any open canopy over none, especially since my AAD is out my rig and needs to be sent out for service! Bad ass flying on the part of his two friends.

The being said if I could take my cake and eat it too I would want my 110 Smart reserve over my 104 elliptical.

I just think it is much more likely to have a better landing under the reserve if your still unconscious, or out of it enough that the brakes stay stowed and you land with no flare. The reserve is going to be more forgiving of an uneven body position that is slumped over in the harness.

With a small pocket rocket, and a slumped over jumper you run the risk of diving line twist, or even just a harness turn that would build up a huge amount of vertical speed before impact.

But again before some one jumps down my throat, I would take any open canopy, and it may just end up being that the main is the easiest for someone to get to.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jul 16, 2013, 6:43 AM)


FB1609  (C 1409)

Jul 16, 2013, 7:23 AM
Post #10 of 76 (8523 views)
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Re: [DougH] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd take a reserve ride over main if I was unconscious, but yeah, a bit harder to pull


78RATS  (D 25449)

Jul 16, 2013, 7:29 AM
Post #11 of 76 (8513 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice save guys.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #12 of 76 (8204 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

FB1609 wrote:
I'd take a reserve ride over main if I was unconscious, but yeah, a bit harder to pull

Guess that's another plus for a d ring reserve handle over a soft one. At least one I never thought of.


yoink

Jul 16, 2013, 10:11 AM
Post #13 of 76 (8077 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

That video gives me the heebie jeebies. Great flying by the two guys that docked on him! Really heads up and a credit to all their training and experience.

Everyone else on that jump needed to stay the hell away. Did they think the jump was still going or what?? Crazy


The FUCK RIGHT OFF signal that the guy in white gave everyone after almost being taken out while dealing with an emergency was probably the best he could have done.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 10:31 AM
Post #14 of 76 (8005 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy wrote that he was unconscious until they docked on him, but I think that is just the way he remembers it because he was still stunned, and likely flying by autopilot. If truly still knocked out, he would not have been stable.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 16, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #15 of 76 (7971 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering about that, I had always been told that an unconscious person tends to fall butt to earth on their back (never seen it obviously)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 16, 2013, 10:52 AM
Post #16 of 76 (7953 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents.

Yes. In another thread a poster was saying something along the lines of "on sunset tracking dives we'll have 15-20 people with fairly high jump numbers; those are fine." (And apparently "fairly high jump numbers" were numbers over 150; the jumper posting had 162.)

These dives are even more dangerous than the old tradition of "bigway at the end of the day." On a tracking dive there is no focal point; no base you can dock on or, failing that, at least keep in sight for breakoff. Everyone tracks in effectively a random direction at the end of the dive and hopes for clear air. In some cases they even barrel roll just to add some more randomness to their directions. To a newbie a tracking dive sounds lower pressure than a bigway; you don't have to dock, you just have to go in a similar direction as the leader. This tends to attract lower experienced jumpers, and those jumpers often shed the jumpsuit they are used to for a freefly suit or no suit at all - resulting in new and hard to predict fallrates/forward speeds.

All that being said they can certainly be done safely. But they are NOT a good way to get 15-20 low time jumpers in the air at the end of the day.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 11:54 AM
Post #17 of 76 (7774 views)
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Re: [billvon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents.

Yes. In another thread a poster was saying something along the lines of "on sunset tracking dives we'll have 15-20 people with fairly high jump numbers; those are fine." (And apparently "fairly high jump numbers" were numbers over 150; the jumper posting had 162.)

These dives are even more dangerous than the old tradition of "bigway at the end of the day." On a tracking dive there is no focal point; no base you can dock on or, failing that, at least keep in sight for breakoff. Everyone tracks in effectively a random direction at the end of the dive and hopes for clear air. In some cases they even barrel roll just to add some more randomness to their directions. To a newbie a tracking dive sounds lower pressure than a bigway; you don't have to dock, you just have to go in a similar direction as the leader. This tends to attract lower experienced jumpers, and those jumpers often shed the jumpsuit they are used to for a freefly suit or no suit at all - resulting in new and hard to predict fallrates/forward speeds.

All that being said they can certainly be done safely. But they are NOT a good way to get 15-20 low time jumpers in the air at the end of the day.

Lets not forget that, when tracking, your total speed (horizontal + vertical) is much higher than regular freefall, probably approaching freefly speeds. More speed, more people, less experience. Great recipe.


(This post was edited by Remster on Jul 16, 2013, 11:56 AM)


QuickDraw  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #18 of 76 (7591 views)
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Re: [Remster] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Remi, I agree with the Horizontal speed, but I have recorded sub 100mph tracks quite often, but I guess when you have to sink off some altitude it can pick up.

I have seen a few freefliers having trouble putting the brakes on when some 'belly' shows up. Wink


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:17 PM
Post #19 of 76 (7555 views)
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Re: [DougH] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

DougH wrote:
grue wrote:
I don't know what comes into play with crossbraced twitchy pocket rocket vs smaller reserve, hypothetically, but someone who jumps one of those might be able to chime in.

With a small pocket rocket, and a slumped over jumper you run the risk of diving line twist, or even just a harness turn that would build up a huge amount of vertical speed before impact...

...but again before some one jumps down my throat, I would take any open canopy, and it may just end up being that the main is the easiest for someone to get to.

My main is loaded at 2.1 and my reserve is loaded at 1.5.

If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero. The only way it would not be a fatality is if I somehow came to and dealt with it, and spinning under my main would only make that less likely.

If left alone, and I didn't come to, I'd likely have a cypress fire low into an unstable reserve deployment and I'd probably impact with line twists and a carving turn in half brakes. Best case I land somewhat into the wind in something like a eucalyptus tree and walk away with a bunch of cuts and scrapes. Worst case I crash downwind into the side of a building and fall on the concrete below and die.

It's a somewhat unique situation, but I'd say deploying my main only makes the situation less survivable. My solution is to avoid skydives that are too big for the skill level involved.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 16, 2013, 1:22 PM
Post #20 of 76 (7539 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>My main is loaded at 2.1 and my reserve is loaded at 1.5.

>If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the
>canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero.

I once had to do this to a woman at Quincy. She was falling back to Earth. I docked on her and realized I did not know what her main vs reserve was. She looked like she was in no shape to cut away if she had a problem* so I opened her reserve, figuring it would be the more reliable of the two canopies. She opened with line twists; I then lost her in the clouds.

Nowadays it's probably a good bet that the reserve is going to be the safer of the two canopies to deploy.

(* - not unconscious but had basically "shut down" and stopped responding to anything.)


andym148  (D 103985)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:24 PM
Post #21 of 76 (7527 views)
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Re: [Remster] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

The jump was the last jump on Sunday 14 July. It was the last jump of a tracking weekend, up until that point the only thing that could be said about the ability of the fliers was a few people landed 90 degs to everyone else on the jump previous. They had done 10 jumps together that weekend, James has 1000+, and the colliding jumper has around 300 ish??

My recollection of events were after the exit I saw people exiting the plane along jump run as briefed, by look I had my eyes on James as he came down to take up a position over the top of me to help steer the track. Only by chance did I see the other jumper hit him as she fell towards what was the building up of the main group, the other jumper complained of being hit/nudged/pushed by someone else during the debrief. This sent them unstable and in an almost 45 deg dive head first, where their leg collided with his helmet (they have a perfect in print of James cam eye "on" switch and rivets from his Tonfly helmet on their leg).

As soon as the collision happened i saw James grab his face and head and start to spin. At that point for me the dive was over, I knew there would likely be some injury to his head/neck/face/eyes from the impact (he wears gators). As i found out in the debrief no one else saw the impact, so as I went to help, most people thought I had stopped tracking and was now going into a speed star; so they tried docking on me. Someone actually grabbed my foot as I was going over to him. At this stage I thought he was unresponsive, it was only after getting in front of him that I could see that the lights were on but no one was home.

He had his legs up his bum, and his hands on his face, which made getting to him was a tad tricky as he was back sliding and spinning. I took a chance and gave him the legs out signal, but that got no response. Thankfully another jumper (Si G) got there before me, and took up position on the secondary side which left me with the primary side. And yes the bloke in blue that comes through us still thinks were doing a speed star, right up until I politely ask them all to (f**k off) go away.

The next thought in my mind was that I didn't know if anyone was above us, I gave a big wave off across his back and then took his toggle at around 5k ish? I went with a worse case scenario, he was unconscious (unable to pull) and the longer the canopy ride the longer he will have to come around. We would get down, and get ready to follow him under canopy in a vehicle with Si G (who's also a Doctor) to treat on the ground.

Thankfully James canopy (XF2 119) opened ok and he landed his canopy fine.

Conclusions.
1- The group had jumped fine together all weekend, and the dive was within their shown capabilities.
2 - Could it have been prevented? Obviously, yes. I preached an old Navy saying...Safety first and safety second!

I'm sure there is more that can be said, but i hope that spreads some light on what happened?

Blue skies.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #22 of 76 (7491 views)
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Re: [QuickDraw] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

QuickDraw wrote:
Hey Remi, I agree with the Horizontal speed, but I have recorded sub 100mph tracks quite often, but I guess when you have to sink off some altitude it can pick up.

I have seen a few freefliers having trouble putting the brakes on when some 'belly' shows up. Wink

In all the tracking jumps I've been in (mind you, I don't do that many), I was more in a delta position than a track...


yoink

Jul 16, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #23 of 76 (7485 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Good save, Andy. Thanks for the report. Smile

A coupe of quick questions - I can't see from Jame's perspective, did you give any sort of breakoff signal before you went after him?

I can't believe that half a dozen people though that a tracking dive was suddenly now a speedstar in the middle of the jump. Had that happened at all during the weekend that might have given the impression that it was normal to improvise like that?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:50 PM
Post #24 of 76 (7446 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the 1st person report.


humanflite  (D 99999)

Jul 16, 2013, 2:47 PM
Post #25 of 76 (7298 views)
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Re: [Remster] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent save guys.
Nice report Andy, good to hear it first hand.


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