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What would you do?

 

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Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 6:33 AM
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What would you do? Can't Post

I didn't want to create a poll and pigeon hole answers.

Scenario: Organizer says on a final dirt dive (please make sure you barrel roll before you deploy to clear your airspace) I know this has been discussed and opinions vary but what I am asking is what you would do when they say this? Personally I do not see it as necessary at all and I am more than capable of executing it without altering my trajectory in a track. I clear my airspace by looking right, left, & through my legs while in my track.

My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there? Would you just do what you do and ignore it? Would you talk to the organizer about it after the jump?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:01 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>>>My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there?

Yes.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jul 15, 2013, 7:01 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:03 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Asuming this is a belly dive, I'd Scratch! Unsure


Avikus  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:34 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a formation load with 2 plane (9 way out of 2 Cessna! HARDCORE!!! ;) ) and during my tracking, when I reached 3500 I waved twice in big movement... then wait 2-3 sec. as I always do in every jump even if it's a 2 way.

When I landed, a fellow jumper told me that she was right on top of me (since the fomartion was a bust) and that she clearly saw my wave.

Now there is two thing I took from that when you think about barrel roll.
1) If you do a barrel roll, you will think about it and only have 0.5 to 1 second to look over you... is that really enough time? Maybe miss what is under you.
2) If you do a big clear wave and wait 2 second.. the person over you will have a clear view and time to track elsewhere or pull him/herself.

My 2 cents


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:35 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

skyjumpenfool wrote:
Asuming this is a belly dive, I'd Scratch! Unsure

Freefly head-up actually.... another thing to add. I was just back tracking so why do I need to barrel roll and go on my back again. I just got to my belly.....


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:46 AM
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Re: [Avikus] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Avikus wrote:
I had a formation load with 2 plane (9 way out of 2 Cessna! HARDCORE!!! ;) ) and during my tracking, when I reached 3500 I waved twice in big movement... then wait 2-3 sec. as I always do in every jump even if it's a 2 way.

When I landed, a fellow jumper told me that she was right on top of me (since the fomartion was a bust) and that she clearly saw my wave.

Now there is two thing I took from that when you think about barrel roll.
1) If you do a barrel roll, you will think about it and only have 0.5 to 1 second to look over you... is that really enough time? Maybe miss what is under you.
2) If you do a big clear wave and wait 2 second.. the person over you will have a clear view and time to track elsewhere or pull him/herself.

My 2 cents

Thanks Avikus. Good thoughts but more concerned with someone like you actually (not you specifically Tongue). Lower jump numbers, their comfort level, their skill level. I do not know what you are capable of in the air but I know many jumpers at your jump numbers that are not comfortable with the barrel roll or lack the skill to even do it without possibly causing a bigger problem.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:47 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
>>>>My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there?

Yes.

I am curious how many people will answer like this. I didn't speak up right then and there and have been thinking about it since.


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 15, 2013, 8:27 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Merit of doing the barrel roll aside..

Any jumper that's participating in a head-up formation should be able to properly execute a barrel roll, am I wrong?

As to whether or not it is appropriate, I don't feel it's necessary and should be at the discretion of each individual jumper.

When tracking away from a formation, you are responsible for what is below you and to each of your sides. Anyone who is above you is clearly not in the right place and should be there responsibility to GTFO.


Avikus  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 8:36 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well in this case it was pure belly jump :P

I can do a good barrel roll, but like time I've check, I don't do it slow enough to realize what is around me ... all I see is earth, sky, earth! :P


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:43 AM
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Re: [Avikus] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Avikus wrote:
Well in this case it was pure belly jump :P

I can do a good barrel roll, but like time I've check, I don't do it slow enough to realize what is around me ... all I see is earth, sky, earth! :P

It would just be a distraction on a belly jump, especially a 9-way. As soon as you turn to track you should be able to see everyone and their direction Smile I don't see any added value in doing a barrel roll


jzzsxm  (A License)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:46 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.


dthames  (B 37674)

Jul 15, 2013, 10:22 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems like this topic has come up on DZ.com 2 or 3 times in the 21 months I have been jumping.

As a low time jumper, I would not want to spend my time looking up, when the real threat to me screwing up would be missing someone below me. I can easily avoid what is below me if I see it. I can't see it unless I am looking at it.

On a belly jump I track really hard, then flare real big and wave clearly. Anyone that is above me and does not see that, is most likely looking somewhere else, which is only encouraged by the barrel roll.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 12:35 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

jzzsxm wrote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Just a question.... with 152 jumps, if that is up to date.... do you not consider that "low jump numbers"?


yoink

Jul 15, 2013, 1:05 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rstanley0312 wrote:

Scenario: Organizer says on a final dirt dive (please make sure you barrel roll before you deploy to clear your airspace)

Are there really organizers who say this? Crazy


I suppose some people still teach the 45 degree rule of exit separation and toggle whipping as a swoop technique, so I shouldn't be surprised...


jzzsxm  (A License)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:26 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Just a question.... with 152 jumps, if that is up to date.... do you not consider that "low jump numbers"?

That jump number's up to date. When it comes to doing a barrel roll, no, I don't consider it a low jump number. When it comes to the grand scheme of life, sure, it's a low jump number. I'm a pretty humble jumper but I'd get a little offended if somebody looked at me and said "do you feel comfortable doing a barrel roll at the end of the jump?" Um, yeah, I've been able to do a barrel roll since AFF.

Anybody with 50+ jumps should be competent enough to be looking around (left, right, and down) while tracking and capable of a barrel roll at the end. If that's truly your concern, that lower jump number people would have a hard time with it, then I don't think it's much of a concern.

If the concern lies elsewhere, like messing with peoples' trackoff routines or it being unnecessary etc, then that's another story.


(This post was edited by jzzsxm on Jul 15, 2013, 1:27 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 15, 2013, 1:28 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the
>end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any
>"lower jump number" jumpers . . . What would I have done in that situation? I'd have
>stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll.

So . . . 15-20 way sunset tracking dives. "Higher jump number" jumpers where "higher jump numbers" is above 100 jumps. A barrel roll during breakoff. For safety of course.

That's almost the definition of "a good jump to avoid." Add some borrowed gear, lots of T-shirts and shorts, and a healthy sprinkling of Go-Pros and you've got next month's incident report covered.


(This post was edited by billvon on Jul 15, 2013, 1:35 PM)


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:32 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

jzzsxm wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Just a question.... with 152 jumps, if that is up to date.... do you not consider that "low jump numbers"?

That jump number's up to date. When it comes to doing a barrel roll, no, I don't consider it a low jump number. When it comes to the grand scheme of life, sure, it's a low jump number. I'm a pretty humble jumper but I'd get a little offended if somebody looked at me and said "do you feel comfortable doing a barrel roll at the end of the jump?" Um, yeah, I've been able to do a barrel roll since AFF.

Anybody with 50+ jumps should be competent enough to be looking around (left, right, and down) while tracking and capable of a barrel roll at the end. If that's truly your concern, that lower jump number people would have a hard time with it, then I don't think it's much of a concern.

If the concern lies elsewhere, like messing with peoples' trackoff routines or it being unnecessary etc, then that's another story.

I was just curious. No offense intended at all. A barrel roll like in AFF is one thing. A barrel roll in the middle or end of a track without changing trajectory is a whole different matter. Yes it is a concern because I have seen jumpers with 300 jumps that track in a zig zag pattern. I could say there are some high jump number people that would not be comfortable with it honestly.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:40 PM
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Re: [billvon] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the
>end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any
>"lower jump number" jumpers . . . What would I have done in that situation? I'd have
>stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll.

So . . . 15-20 way sunset tracking dives. "Higher jump number" jumpers where "higher jump numbers" is above 160 jumps. A barrel roll during breakoff. For safety of course.

That's almost the definition of "a good jump to avoid." Add some borrowed gear, lots of T-shirts and shorts, and a healthy sprinkling of Go-Pros and you've got next month's incident report covered.

I said the exact thing after seeing the AAD fire at the American Boogie this year. It's the type of jump that I might have hopped on when I was in that 100-200 jump range, that I'd stay far, far away from now. Unsure I feel like we underestimate the potential for tracking dives to become shit shows.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:43 PM
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Re: [billvon] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Bill: wanna do a downplane after we open?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 15, 2013, 2:32 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Anybody with 50+ jumps should be competent enough to be looking around (left, right, and down) while tracking and capable of a barrel roll at the end.

Two questions - how good do you expect to be able to scan the sky above you during the course of a roll?

Next, what would you do if you did indeed see someone up there, but you were at the end of your track and at your pull altitude?

Seems to me the quality of your scan is going to be very low, and even if you did spot someone, you've tracked yourself in to a corner where all you can do is suck it down further while you (or the other guy) clears your airspace.

If you really feel the need, and truly have the skills, the MUCH better plan is to transition to a back track about halfway through your track. Take a look around, and take advantage of the time remaining in your track to deal with anything you might see above you, so you can arrive at the end of your track with clear airspace and ready to pull on time.


dudeman17  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 2:58 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

The operative issue here is clearing your airspace before you pull, especially the airspace above you in the direction of your deployment. If you're backtracking and can see above you before you roll over and dump, you've got that covered, but you may not be aware of what's going on below you. If you can't barrel roll cleanly, or if your roll happens too fast to get a good view, then that's not going to work. If you just wave off and wait, figuring it's the person above you's responsibility to react, then you're abdicating your responsibility. The reaper doesn't care who's fault it is, if two people collide during deployment, you're likely both going to die. So track off and check the airspace around and below you. You can look over your shoulder to see above you as you're waving off. If someone is there, by all means track out from under them before you dump. If your standard pull altitude doesn't allow for that, then it's time to rethink that. Safety's a skill, survival an art. It's your job to not let anyone kill you, even if they're trying to, and in turn not to kill anyone else. Get killed ONCE, you can't take it back.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 15, 2013, 4:10 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ask him/her why it's necessary to barrel roll to clear the air above. Unless a person has a problem rotating their neck, it is quite easy to see directly above by turning the head to each side and using the eyes to complete the task.

A barrel roll is absolutely NOT needed to clear your air. Besides that, low man has the right of way so unless you deploy without a wave-off, it is the high person's job to clear you. No one should be tracking directly above you anyway.

We've been clearing our air by turning our heads and using our eyes for decades. It hasn't stopped working just because some feel the need to fix what ain't broke.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on Jul 15, 2013, 4:32 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jul 15, 2013, 4:21 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
We've been clearing our air by turning our heads and using our eyes for decades. It hasn't stopped working just because some feel the need to broke what ain't fixed.

And if you're worried about the high guy, I would argue that the solution is not barrel rolls, but instead to think long and hard about who you're jumping with and why you don't trust them to not be on top of you at deployment. Unimpressed


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:16 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the guy above you is so worried about who "maybe" above him, nobody is really checking who is below. Low man has the right of way.

I would have asked the organizer why it's nesasary to do a barrel roll. Maybe instead of saying just do one, go over common problems that can/do occur on brake off for this type of jump and priorities if you find that you are over the top of someone would be more useful than "just do a barrel roll".

If there are inexperienced on the jump, I see that as way more helpful as they can take that info back and pass it on.


Trafficdiver  (C 39999)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had an organizer ask me to do that on a belly jump (he was normally a freefly organizer). I told him I was not comfortable doing that and would sit it out if that was not cool. He rethought it and said only do if you're comfortable, if not track like your life depended on, which is what I did.

It's not that I can't do a barrel roll, bit if its a shit show at break off, and I need to go a little lower and longer to clear the zoo, I'd don't want to worry about a barrel roll, that I don't normally practice, to take up any more altitude than neccessary.


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