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Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning?

 

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Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 10, 2013, 10:44 AM
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Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? Can't Post

After a very successful Independence Day Boogie at CSC my Cookie G2 helmet was really sweaty - so as I often do, in preparation for the next three weeks of sweltering heat at the Redemption Boogie and Summerfest , I washed it.

I left it to soak and when I came back I noticed it was floating. Not just floating but floating in such a way that the face stayed up out of the water.

No matter how many different ways I tried to force the face down including turning it upside down and filling it with water the face kept coming back up as it shows in the pictures I've attached.

In my mind I've always thought that if I ever landed in water I would immediately get rid of my helmet. Not any more.

My G2 may just help keep my face out of the water.

I am going to the pool this Friday with my two young grandsons. I think I'll take the helmet with and do a live test. I'll let you know the outcome.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Jul 10, 2013, 10:51 AM)
Attachments: IMG_20130710_115007_522.jpg _2.jpg (223 KB)
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evan85  (C 41367)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:11 AM
Post #2 of 26 (3350 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydivesg wrote:
No matter how many different ways I tried to force the face down including turning it upside down and filling it with water the face kept coming back up as it shows in the pictures I've attached.

Was one of those "different ways" you tried to force the face down applying your entire body weight to the helmet? Crazy


cruelpops  (C 40905)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #3 of 26 (3312 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Put it on your head, buckle your chin strap, add a 25-pound weight belt, exhaust all of your breath and jump into the deep-end of the pool. I will bet you a case of beer it doesn't hold you up. Payable upon my return to SDI in August.

Of course we will need some verifiable (UNEDITED) proof; third-party preferred - I know what you do from a Cessna. Wink


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 10, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #4 of 26 (3212 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydivesg wrote:
After a very successful Independence Day Boogie at CSC my Cookie G2 helmet was really sweaty - so as I often do, in preparation for the next three weeks of sweltering heat at the Redemption Boogie and Summerfest , I washed it.

I left it to soak and when I came back I noticed it was floating. Not just floating but floating in such a way that the face stayed up out of the water.

No matter how many different ways I tried to force the face down including turning it upside down and filling it with water the face kept coming back up as it shows in the pictures I've attached.

In my mind I've always thought that if I ever landed in water I would immediately get rid of my helmet. Not any more.

My G2 may just help keep my face out of the water.

I am going to the pool this Friday with my two young grandsons. I think I'll take the helmet with and do a live test. I'll let you know the outcome.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.

Sandy: the problem I see is that, if you have stress issues (in the water, I guess that's possible lol), you may not be able to open your visor. And a closed visor, with breathing, is probably worse than any potential increase of flotation that you might get... Just IMHO...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 10, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #5 of 26 (3181 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Exellent point Sandy. I'm guessing the foam in a Protec would float as well. Something to think about in an unintentional water landing.

Cool


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 10, 2013, 2:57 PM
Post #6 of 26 (3069 views)
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Re: [cruelpops] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

evan85 wrote:
Was one of those "different ways" you tried to force the face down applying your entire body weight to the helmet?


You obviously misunderstood my hypothesis. I don't plan on having someone holding me under water with all their weight. I am also assuming I will be attempting to keep my self afloat using my gear and tread/swimming skills. I just noticed that the helmet may help in that endeavor. But I will not know for certain until I try it in the pool.

cruelpops wrote:
Put it on your head, buckle your chin strap, add a 25-pound weight belt, exhaust all of your breath and jump into the deep-end of the pool. I will bet you a case of beer it doesn't hold you up.

Actually I have thought quite thoroughly about unintentional water landings and what I would do. In my past intentional water jumps I can assure you I did not exhaust all of my air. In fact just the opposite - I took as deep a breath as I could. I also wear my weight belt on the outside of my suit with the buckles in the front. Once I'm convinced of a water landing the first thing to go will be the weight.

I'm not sure why so many people have the propensity to jump on the "negative bandwagon".

I had no intention of proposing the helmet would keep an entire body floating and frankly I'm confident the Naysayers already know that.

I simply made an observation and I'm going to test it further.

I remember when Bill Booth first came up with all his goofy ideas. And I remember all the haters back then too. I'm thankful he pushed those people aside and kept pressing on.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 10, 2013, 3:24 PM
Post #7 of 26 (3021 views)
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Re: [Remster] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

remster wrote:

Sandy: the problem I see is that, if you have stress issues (in the water, I guess that's possible lol), you may not be able to open your visor. And a closed visor, with breathing, is probably worse than any potential increase of flotation that you might get... Just IMHO...

That's an interesting point. However for me I don't believe it would be a problem because after I clear my airspace the first thing I do is open my visor and clear my ears (one of the reasons for having a flip-up).

I certainly do not advocate people assume this to be an option for them at this time. In my EPs for water I've always added unclipping my chin strap and preparing to jetison my helmet. I now have decided to re-evaluate that procedure. I will not make a decision until I can live test it in the pool. I plan on every configuration possible such as face down and see if the helmet keeps me that way or wants to help turn me face up and visa versa.

Over the years of water skiing and boating I know some flotation devices actually caused your head to turn face down. We discarded those quite quickly.

skyjumpenfool wrote:
Exellent point Sandy. I'm guessing the foam in a Protec would float as well. Something to think about in an unintentional water landing.

Cool
Yeah. Mike I thought about that too. One of the things that I noticed on my G2 was that the chin and jaw pad seemed to be a big factor in keeping the chin up in the water helping to lift the face up. Add to that the light weight carbon fiber and it seems to be pretty boyant.

I'm pretty confident that the foam padding in the Protec will be quite boyant as well. Howeve since most of it is in the back and sides and nothing under the chin - I'm curious if it will actually cause the head to go face down. I think I have an old Protec at home. If so I'll take it to the pool as well.

I welcome other well thought out questions, concerns and observations.



Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Jul 10, 2013, 3:27 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 10, 2013, 3:47 PM
Post #8 of 26 (2969 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like your mouth would be just underwater in those pictures.

If you want to keep your head any higher than that, it will harm, not help, your efforts to stay above water.


evan85  (C 41367)

Jul 10, 2013, 4:34 PM
Post #9 of 26 (2916 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

I appreciate your clarification of what you're proposing. To be fair, when I said the body weight of a person, I was referring to you -- if you were unable to tread water for some reason, for example.

If you're counting on being conscious and being able to tread water, etc., you're right that a few pounds of buoyancy could help. I'm interested to see the results of your experiment. One note -- I'm willing to bet the suggestion to wear 25 lbs of weight was to act like your rig, not like your weightbelt that you can simply jettison on landing.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 10, 2013, 5:38 PM
Post #10 of 26 (2854 views)
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Re: [billvon] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
Looks like your mouth would be just underwater in those pictures.

If you want to keep your head any higher than that, it will harm, not help, your efforts to stay above water.

Actually Bill, the front part of my helmet comes to just above my chin bone and under my lip line. It's one of the reasons I like the helmet, because I can talk to people in the plane or in the tunnel without pulling the helmet below my mouth or taking it off completely.

So based on those pictures my mouth and nose would be totally out of the water.

Of course the helmet is not on my head so at this point it's merely conjecture which is why I'm taking it swimming.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be..


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 10, 2013, 6:26 PM
Post #11 of 26 (2809 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

having more than 50 water entries in various helmets, I'll venture to say "it doesn't matter" and "helmets will typically add to the problem, not reduce it."

Given that the padding is at the back of the helmet, it would push the face/chin towards the water, if it's going to have any affect at all.

A ProTec helmet has already been shown to be a potential liability in water. It floats, but it also pushes the face down. I can't imagine the G2/3 would be as floaty, and certainly not better.

However, very much looking forward to your result.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 10, 2013, 7:01 PM
Post #12 of 26 (2769 views)
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Re: [DSE] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:
having more than 50 water entries

Wow Spot, your accuracy sucks...... :) Sorry couldn't resist.

Actually I've never given much thought to this until I read about the fellow jumper we just lost in the water and then seeing my helmet float.

Over the years I've set out to get facts about uknown things. Sometimes my hypothesis was proven and sometimes not.

I haven't really decided which way this will turn out and it won't surprise me if having the helmet on my head changes everything but it certainly will be an interesting and fun be it not so scientific experiment. If nothing else I expect my grandsons will get a kick out of it.

I'll post my results when I get them.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. .


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 10, 2013, 7:49 PM
Post #13 of 26 (2738 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8zv5DKreic )part 1(

Yeah, kinda doesWinkWink

A few comments (and I know nothing of the situation in Wisconsin).
~your reserve will float. I'll try to find the video (on Youtube) we did, showing a PD218 reserve floating with a 180lb man on it, for more than 40 minutes in fresh water. It'll float longer in saltwater.

~Contrary to USPA instruction (created in the time of rounds), getting on your back vs your belly is generally a better option. Reserve will put you face down.

~Getting out of legstraps is easier when on the back with the reserve floating beneath you.

~Helmets generally do one of two things (based on the four helmets used in testing).
-They float and force the head upward, thwarting the ability to float on the back
-The fill up with water and frustrate the wearer (they don't weigh the head down).
-The ones that filled up (bonehead Mindwarp, Tonfly c3) did eventually soak up water and instead of floating, they eventually sank.

The 3DO that Cookie uses may have some different properties, and we didn't test with this helmet, so I'm interested in your real-world results.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 10, 2013, 8:22 PM
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Re: [DSE] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:


~Helmets generally do one of two things (based on the four helmets used in testing).
-They float and force the head upward, thwarting the ability to float on the back
-The fill up with water and frustrate the wearer (they don't weigh the head down).
-The ones that filled up (bonehead Mindwarp, Tonfly c3) did eventually soak up water and instead of floating, they eventually sank.

The 3DO that Cookie uses may have some different properties, and we didn't test with this helmet, so I'm interested in your real-world results.

That is what is promising for me. I took the center pad out of the helmet while washing it and had it along with the helmet soaking for over an hour. The fabric surrounding the d3o was saturated but the d3o was still very bouyant and the pad never sank it floated the entire time.

Since the side pads are full of d3o as well as two big chunks in each jawbone it is my belief that the d3o material is what makes the helmet float which as I stated earlier would not sink even after an hour of soaking. The pictures were taken after the helmet had been in the sink for at least an hour.

It is now time to test it on this fat head. Let's go swimmin'!

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be..


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Jul 10, 2013, 8:25 PM)


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Jul 11, 2013, 5:06 AM
Post #15 of 26 (2575 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydivesg wrote:
I am going to the pool this Friday with my two young grandsons. I think I'll take the helmet with and do a live test. I'll let you know the outcome.

I think one of the outcomes may be that people will stare at you Wink.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 11, 2013, 5:35 AM
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Re: [MikeJD] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

As a military helicopter pilot I was trained to take the flight helmet off and use it to cup air and hold on to it close to my chest. Works just like holding on to a beach ball.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 11, 2013, 5:46 AM
Post #17 of 26 (2537 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

All this beggs the question... Can other parts of the sky divers equiptment be built to float? For instance, leg pads? Cutaway handles? Back Pads? Jumpsuit grippers? Helmet padding? I hope the manufactuers are listening.

Cool


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jul 11, 2013, 7:27 AM
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why are you worried about drowning? If you're not confident about your swimming skills, get someone to coach you!


NorrinRadd  (Student)

Jul 11, 2013, 9:30 AM
Post #19 of 26 (2364 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

FlyingRhenquest wrote:
Why are you worried about drowning? If you're not confident about your swimming skills, get someone to coach you!
Every little bit helps! Coaching, floating gear...


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 11, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #20 of 26 (2304 views)
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Re: [NorrinRadd] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

NorrinRadd wrote:
FlyingRhenquest wrote:
Why are you worried about drowning? If you're not confident about your swimming skills, get someone to coach you!
Every little bit helps! Coaching, floating gear...

Not landing in the water...


NorrinRadd  (Student)

Jul 11, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #21 of 26 (2298 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

wildcard451 wrote:
NorrinRadd wrote:
FlyingRhenquest wrote:
Why are you worried about drowning? If you're not confident about your swimming skills, get someone to coach you!
Every little bit helps! Coaching, floating gear...

Not landing in the water...

LaughLaughLaughLaugh
That too


Elisha  (D 31656)

Jul 11, 2013, 3:27 PM
Post #22 of 26 (2134 views)
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Re: [DSE] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8zv5DKreic )part 1(

Yeah, kinda doesWinkWink

A few comments (and I know nothing of the situation in Wisconsin).
~your reserve will float. I'll try to find the video (on Youtube) we did, showing a PD218 reserve floating with a 180lb man on it, for more than 40 minutes in fresh water. It'll float longer in saltwater.

~Contrary to USPA instruction (created in the time of rounds), getting on your back vs your belly is generally a better option. Reserve will put you face down.

~Getting out of legstraps is easier when on the back with the reserve floating beneath you.

~Helmets generally do one of two things (based on the four helmets used in testing).
-They float and force the head upward, thwarting the ability to float on the back
-The fill up with water and frustrate the wearer (they don't weigh the head down).
-The ones that filled up (bonehead Mindwarp, Tonfly c3) did eventually soak up water and instead of floating, they eventually sank.

This is interesting...especially about the reserve. I was one of the 15 dumped into the Pacific in Nicaragua....or should I say blown. I did not have flotation gear (yes, shame on me), but definitely sensed my reserve helping me float. I was probably about 200 yards or so out to sea and ended up swimming back by the time the fishing boat got to me (others were a lot further out then me). I remember someone mentioning 20-30 minutes for the reserve, so to hear >40 for the ocean is reassuring news. Oh, I was in a wingsuit too. I just did a casual elementary backstroke, staying in all my gear and dragging my main back with me (and it cooperated by floating on top until just before the end).


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 12, 2013, 8:12 AM
Post #23 of 26 (1926 views)
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Re: [DSE] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:
having more than 50 water entries in various helmets, I'll venture to say "it doesn't matter" and "helmets will typically add to the problem, not reduce it."
Thanks for the data.

Here's my idea of what you should do. Take the helmet off, hold it with both hands and, trapping as much air in it as you can, use it for floatation. Smile


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 12, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #24 of 26 (1863 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

I tried this with a couple of the helmets, and the amount of air they'd hold was minimal, and was a minor bit of a hindrance to the angle the floating reserve wants your body to hold.
However, I'm a fan of getting the helmet off as soon as you're in the water (not before, as there may be rocks/reef).
On some of the jumps in the video, you'll see where I left the helmet on for the swimming portions. It was a minor PITA.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jul 13, 2013, 3:17 AM
Post #25 of 26 (1716 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Can a Cookie G2/3 help keep you from drowning? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're within a mile over water; have you considered water wings?


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jul 13, 2013, 3:18 AM)


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