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Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie

 

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Poll: Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie
Optimum 176 17 / 47%
PDR 160 2 / 6%
Both will probably kill/severely injure you @ ~1.3 wingloading @ ~50 jumps, wait and get PDR 3 / 8%
Both would probably kill/injure you @ ~1.3 wingloading @ ~50 jumps, wait & get Optimum 14 / 39%
36 total votes
 
3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 11, 2013, 9:18 AM
Post #51 of 74 (1506 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

If you had to guess, with your above average jumping, how many jumps do you think it will take you to "master" the 210 rental?

In other words, when do you think you'll be jumping the 190 with a 176 reserve?


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jul 11, 2013, 9:19 AM)




theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 11, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #53 of 74 (1472 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

skybytch wrote:
In reply to:
but generally riggers prefer packing OPs.

Really? Where did you get that information?

+1

Was just thinking that when I saw your post.


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 11, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #54 of 74 (1445 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

theonlyski wrote:
skybytch wrote:
In reply to:
but generally riggers prefer packing OPs.

Really? Where did you get that information?

+1

Was just thinking that when I saw your post.

What a waste of two postsCrazy

I said 'generally'.




champu  (D 28302)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:27 PM
Post #56 of 74 (1390 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Apollo87 wrote:
After I'm super confident on a 190 rental/demo for 50-60 jumps, hopefully I'll be around 150 and I can jump my rig. I know that still maybe a little on the quick side, but I'd like to think I'll get in at least another 50 jumps, maybe more, after that before I have my first cutaway(knock on wood). Even if not, I'll be able to make it down safely. I'll only be jumping in primo conditions for a while. And be close to my C license by the time I Jump it. Who knows.

You have to understand that newer jumpers that buy gear and assemble it or have it assembled for them can be counted on to start jumping it shortly thereafter regardless of any plans they may have had or that they announced to the world to let it sit in their closet "until they were ready for it." This goes for people asking about cameras, wingsuits, rigs, canopies, you name it. So what you're saying might be all well and good but people who seem to be ignoring your stated plans are pretty safe in doing so.

Don't take it personally. You're going to want to jump it. You're going to be able to find someone to tell you you'll be fine. Most dropzones aren't going to stop you. None of that makes it a good idea.

That said... I have a couple reserve rides on PDRs, a reserve ride on an OPM, and a couple demo jumps on OPMs used as a main... all the same size canopies. In my opinion they do not open or fly substantially different as to trump the old addage of "more is better" when it comes to reserves.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 11, 2013, 1:06 PM
Post #57 of 74 (1363 views)
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Re: [DcloudZ] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

DcloudZ wrote:
theonlyski wrote:
skybytch wrote:
In reply to:
but generally riggers prefer packing OPs.

Really? Where did you get that information?

+1

Was just thinking that when I saw your post.

What a waste of two postsCrazy

I said 'generally'.

Make that 4 now.

Two riggers commented on a post generalizing riggers asking your sources. Wink


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 11, 2013, 1:07 PM
Post #58 of 74 (1358 views)
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Re: [champu] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You have to understand that newer jumpers that buy gear and assemble it or have it assembled for them can be counted on to start jumping it shortly thereafter regardless of any plans they may have had or that they announced to the world to let it sit in their closet "until they were ready for it." This goes for people asking about cameras, wingsuits, rigs, canopies, you name it. So what you're saying might be all well and good but people who seem to be ignoring your stated plans are pretty safe in doing so.

This.




3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 11, 2013, 1:35 PM
Post #60 of 74 (1334 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Idk? 75 more jumps? 100? Maybe more, maybe less. It depends on my finances. "Supposedly" they're going to give me a $5/hr raise here pretty soon, otherwise I'm going elsewhere. I'm the IT administrator and they pay me as the medical records guy. They just seemed to forget to pay me accordingly when the job description changed... Anyways, I'm hoping 6-8 months. It all depends on when I can finish the checklist and get down to a reasonable weight to get my wingloading below 1.2 on the pulse and 1.3 on the Optimum. Hopefully, even less than that.

How much do you pay to rent the rig you'll be jumping? A DZ close to me is 20 bucks a jump or 60 bucks for the day. You're going to rent for 75-100 jumps?

You'd be paying an outrageous overhead to rent for that many jumps.

Seriously at that point just BUY a second cheapo used rig and pound out those jumps on that... it would probably cost you about the same.

To champu's point, say you get 25 jumps into your renting plan and you're realizing how much money it's costing you.. I find it really hard to believe you'll have the discipline to keep overpaying for jumps while the "sexy" rig that you're already super attached to is sitting there ready to go.

What if AFTER you make the switch you put on more weight and your WL gets beyond your skill level, are you going to rent again? (because you'd have the self-control to STOP jumping your new rig.... right?)

Renting for that many jumps seems like a huge waste of money and very unrealistic when both your emotions and your wallet are telling you to give in and jump the rig you already have.


degeneration  (C 106811)

Jul 11, 2013, 3:11 PM
Post #61 of 74 (1295 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would you want a larger WL on your reserve than your main? Why when you become confident enough to just jump a 190, would you risk jumping a 176 on the same jump if you have a reserve ride?

If you don't or won't, then some decisions have been made wrongly somewhere along the line.

I'm on a 109 just now and plan to stay in that canopy size for many hundred more jumps. If some time down the line I plan on jumping a Velo 84 or 96, let's say around jump 1000 for arguement's sake, which scares the hell out of me just now, but I buy it now to have it ready and waiting for when I want it... what's the bets I'd end up jumping it sooner than I currently plan? I think I would. So I'm not going to buy it until I'm ready and actually want it.

Disclaimer - that was a made up canopy progression for me. I've got no interest in Velos at the moment.


Machupo  (B 37614)

Jul 11, 2013, 3:32 PM
Post #62 of 74 (1254 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Apollo87 wrote:
Idk? 75 more jumps? 100? Maybe more, maybe less. It depends on my finances. "Supposedly" they're going to give me a $5/hr raise here pretty soon, otherwise I'm going elsewhere. I'm the IT administrator and they pay me as the medical records guy. They just seemed to forget to pay me accordingly when the job description changed... Anyways, I'm hoping 6-8 months. It all depends on when I can finish the checklist and get down to a reasonable weight to get my wingloading below 1.2 on the pulse and 1.3 on the Optimum. Hopefully, even less than that.

That is a bold wing loading, fwiw. I found myself in a similar (but not as pronounced) situation a while back.

All my cash went into rental gear (1:1 WL) and some coaching... and I busted my ass on the treadmill for a bit.

As was posted in here earlier, hospital bills can be much more expensive than gear.

I'd go with the OP if I had to choose.


(This post was edited by Machupo on Jul 11, 2013, 3:33 PM)




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 11, 2013, 5:26 PM
Post #64 of 74 (1198 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

>It depends on my finances.

That's the problem. You may get to the point where your choices are:

1) Make a few jumps with your rig because you can barely afford the jump ticket

2) Don't jump at all because you can't afford the jump ticket and the gear rental.

Are you disciplined enough to choose 2? To basically put your skydiving career on hold for a few months while you save up the money to afford gear rental + jump tickets? Most people aren't.

As an alternative, you could consider either cancelling the rig or selling it, buying some largish old rig (say a big Vector with a Sabre 1 and a PD176R) with the money and using the extra cash to jump. It's not nearly as cool but might be safer in the long run - and might get you more jumping sooner.


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 12, 2013, 6:18 AM
Post #65 of 74 (1112 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

If you would all just stop arguing, I think it would be a good idea to indentify why this conversation is being held as opposed to measuring dicks.

It's blatantly obvious that there is one root cause to this whole pointless argument.

'Buying a rig while halfway through AFF'

It's just not a good idea... Unsure


xijonix  (B 39585)

Jul 12, 2013, 8:38 AM
Post #66 of 74 (1058 views)
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Re: [DcloudZ] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Buying a rig while halfway through AFF'

It's just not a good idea... Unsure

This.

While you may feel disciplined enough to let you shiny new rig sit in the closet, I promise you there will come a time when you tell yourself that you're ready when you know you're not; probably because you will tell yourself that you don't NEED to spend the money anymore since you have a rig of your own. Hell, you might get away with it once and land alright, maybe twice and you will fell that you were worrying for nothing. Eventually you will end up in a bad situation, whether it be winds, landing factors, or whatever and see just how aggressive your canopy can fly. You won't even have to worry about your reserve size, because it's the main that will do the damage this time.


I'm surprised nobody brought this up yet, but I was told that the pulse is slightly more aggressive than a novice canopy which is what his qualitative experience level will be when he jumps this canopy. Even PD describes it as such: "The Pulse is a lightly elliptical nine cell canopy designed for the active intermediate to experienced "fun jumper."" Even if he losses all the weight he says he can and goes back down to 183lbs, that still puts his exit weight around 208lbs and thus would fall into PDs "Advanced" Category. If he only loses 20lbs then he would fall into the "experienced" category. Now I know he said he takes canopy courses, but shouldn't this be cause for concern as well?


GooniesKid

Jul 12, 2013, 9:58 AM
Post #67 of 74 (1013 views)
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Re: [xijonix] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Would it possible to please have a moderator lock this thread?

This has not been the first nor will it be the last discussion where a pre-licensed student has asked about a purchased rig.

What always happens is this. The OP (or any pre-licensed jumper) already has a rig and is "looking" for some advise about said gear.
9 out of 10 times, OP (or any pre-licensed jumper) will get advise from veterans against committing to a purchase.
However, there will be that 1 dude that says
"oh, it's ok, you'll be fine" or "it's your money you can do whatever you're want". This 1 person is what the OP (or any pre-licensed jumper) is looking for. They are looking for that 1 person to tell them it will be ok or you'll be fine, despite any lack of common sense, lack of experience, advise from other jumpers, or praying on the right conditions and luck to get them through this sport.

What is known is this:
OP will NOT sell his/her rig. He/She is committed to keeping the rig.
OP will PROBABLY NOT lose the weight to fly a comfortable WL. I see it all the time (and others have too). You know someone that says they will lose weight and what happens? They hardly ever do or worst yet, they gain even more.
OP will MOST LIKELY bypass renting a rig (overhead cost is expensive) and PROBABLY does not have the discipline to wait to jump the purchased rig. If OP does not have the discipline to wait on a purchase what makes anyone think OP has the discipline to wait on jumping his/her purchased rig?


hillson  (D 33134)

Jul 12, 2013, 10:19 AM
Post #68 of 74 (998 views)
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Re: [xijonix] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

xijonix wrote:
I'm surprised nobody brought this up yet, but I was told that the pulse is slightly more aggressive than a novice canopy which is what his qualitative experience level will be when he jumps this canopy. Even PD describes it as such: "The Pulse is a lightly elliptical nine cell canopy designed for the active intermediate to experienced "fun jumper.""

Further info than just the quick blurb on PD's site: http://www.performancedesigns.com/..._Characteristics.PDF

An appropriately loaded and sized Pulse shouldn't be a problem for a novice jumper. Less aggressive than a Sabre2 or Storm, for instance. Loved mine.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jul 12, 2013, 1:16 PM
Post #69 of 74 (892 views)
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Re: Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me remind EVERYONE, that this is a topical forum and all forum rules apply. This is EVERYONEs one warning, stop with the playground banter and name calling. If you cannot articulate your thoughts without reverting to calling people names or insulting them you need to walk away from the keyboard and this thread.

I have removed the posts that had inflammatory content in them or quoted in them. If your post is no longer there, do not repost it, do not complain about it. If your reply quoted an inflammatory statement made by another but your reply was civil, your post may have been removed for the quoted text in it and not your statement per say. Don't complain about it.

Failure to follow the rules will result in a lengthy banning from this forum, so choose your words wisely and refrain from posting if you cannot control your emotions.


Apollo87  (A License)

Jul 12, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #70 of 74 (884 views)
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Re: [billvon] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, everyone at my dz told me I'd be fine on that pulse 190 by 50-60 jumps. Everyone... instructors and S&TA included. The ONLY people that have told me otherwise are on the friggin Internet. But, fortunately, I have tremendous respect for many of the people on here, especially yourself and I have a backup plan, if you and other extremely experienced ppl said I wasn't going to be able to safely fly my rig under 100 jumps. I believe Skydiving.com will actually let you rent pretty much any rig, main & res combo for a decent price. That's what I would do. I've already lost 3lbs in 3 days, so far so good!


mrubin  (C License)

Jul 12, 2013, 2:00 PM
Post #71 of 74 (869 views)
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Re: [Apollo87] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

Apollo87 wrote:
Well, everyone at my dz told me I'd be fine on that pulse 190 by 50-60 jumps.

When I bought my first rig, my instructors told me I should go with a 150 (I weighed 150 at the time). I followed their advice and ended up with a Pilot 150 for my main and a Smart 135 for my reserve with only about 60 jumps. Luckily everything worked out for me. I'm very cautious about the conditions I jump in, but I still could have found myself in a bad situation under a reserve smaller than I should have had. If I were to do it again I would have found myself a nice 170 main and a larger reserve. With some skill and what I'm sure is a lot of luck, I survived quick downsizing unharmed. Even though I know that I can land my reserve safely (from having done it), I decided that when things go bad I want more fabric over my head so I just bought a larger reserve.

The whole point of this post is that the people at your dz are not always right. A lot of the people on this site know a lot more about skydiving than either you or I, so I think you should consider their advice.


grue  (D License)

Jul 12, 2013, 4:55 PM
Post #72 of 74 (796 views)
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Re: [DcloudZ] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

DcloudZ wrote:

'Buying a rig while halfway through AFF'

It's just not a good idea... Unsure

That's not an entirely fair blanket statement. If I'd been able to afford it I would have bought a rig around the same time, as the rental gear at my DZ was brutally small for me.

Now, "buying an aggressively-downsized canopy and basing your new rig around it halfway through AFF might not be wise" , I would agree with.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 12, 2013, 5:48 PM
Post #73 of 74 (782 views)
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Re: [labrys] Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie [In reply to] Can't Post

labrys wrote:
Quote:
Seriously. Please leave this thread alone. I'm asking nicely. Try it sometime.

It's a public forum and you asked a question. He has every right to post. Ignore the thread if you don't like the answers. It doesn't look like your listening to anyone anyway.

Hey don't be so hard on this kid???


What's up? You havin a bad day, seriously???

Yo know how I write, and some of my thoughts, and I'm not even maken a peep over this one....

After the traveling of the last few weeks, what a glorious day, sunny, nice breeze, cold drinks, hot plane, this place is great... Kelly you don't have to point out the oblivious, obviously he , she, it needs assistance of some sort...CrazyCrazy

This new internet crowd is sometimes tough to pin down???

He had me at his weight and number of jumps....

The Optimium is a very nice canopy, no doubt, but personally I don't give a fucking shit about the brand, I only care about one thing with a reserve...


And that is get one.

I always jump with a reserve. Well most allways...

Anyways the cart is before the horse when you hear that "I bought this or that" and then the subject of wingloading comes up!!!

My advice is at 23 jumps you have made a mistake, as some very well meaning people have already pointed out. Take the advice.

I know it's not what you want to hear , that you mention money and then the joy of having your own equipment. But you yourself have asked for this advice here, you have put your foot into it when in the first post you have stated your making purchasing decisions based upon your projected increase in ability?

It's like saying:

Hey I'm going to be an expert, (ya I know you didn't say this, but the effect on others is the same.)

Anyways "Hey, I'm going to be great some day, but right now I need help learning all of the stuff that I don't yet know what I need to learn."

So here is my shopping list, look at the stuff I now have...or want

So your exit wt is 235 and you want a 160 (anything)
That puts your wl at 1.47?

I don't know where your located at the moment, but I think I just saw Windmiller and Batch on the other side of the tent, I'm at DeLand till the pm today, in the resteraunt which is the best DZ food place in the jumpin world, just imop, and slightly buzzed, but ZI can't need or give out anything that really dosent make much sense at the moment so my apologies, but those two could give yo a hand...


anyways where was I ,...


O'h kid, stay safe

Noone wants you to hurt yourself and that is what is behind most of the rhetoric your reciving at the moment Smile (I love the happy face thingigies,...Whay can't you guys make a valentine icon, what isn't anyone around here romantic at all????)

Ok ok,...

190 Pulse , "packs one size smaller." I ask one size smaller than what!!!!

Anyways your going to have an Optimul size with that pulse listed, O'h wait a moment here...Some drunk just told me that the pulse isn't listed on the Marage site for the G$ so what one......................................................................................................................................................................................................................It should pack the same as the 170 Sabre 2,


Anyways....So yo have done some wing loaded calculations for the rig and the size things...


You don't want to have a


O'h gripes sake , would everyone please sotp talking I can't hear a thing.....


He said he has a 220, no a 210 Spectre, (nice canopy btw!!!) (They don't make a 220)

Anyways GOOD work on the sizing thing, you don't want to stick that 220 in the G4 it would be too tight and that is or would be bad....just ask Mr. Sherman , he 's just down the street as well....


Anyways the wingloading thing is a bit of a concern...., i'm not sure of his original question..........


He dosent have any money but he went out and bought a G4.......

Ok ok I'll tell him.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


He already said he has a job..........................................................................................................................................................................................................


30 hours a week!


Well tell him to go and get another job?????........................................................................................


Who the fuck works 30 hours a week?


Are you a "corrctinail officer down the street at the Vulvalusa house of country club???? or a cop???



.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

He said he is going to loose 17 punds to bring his wing loading down to .95, no I don't know what kind of wing loading students should have????

But 17 lbs in 2 monthes will work right???

But to get to a "safe" (ya I know no one likes that safe word, cause in 50 jumps he says he is going to be at a wl that some experts don't trust.....



So the real question is

HOW MUCH WEIGHT SmileSmileTongueTongueTongueTongueMadMadMadMad (I love these klicky things) (O'h and I'm getting more help than usuall with my spelling)


"On a strict diet & exercise routine, hoping " <<<<<<<<<

He is going to hop around to loose the weight!!! I bet he watches tv, ya know that fat show, biggist loosers????


Sp finaly someone whos spellin is worse than mine!!!!

But I had a spell checker through collage.


Give me back my keayboard!!! NOW...


Chris has a number of "advanced" degrees, so supposedly you should listen.



Anyways what kind of pounds should he loose to get to an appropriate wing loading... T Ya know I have never heard of this being done this way????


But there seems to be some confusing issue about what wing ooading he wants to be,...ZOk ok...



What Wing loading do yo think yo should be at?

ok ok.....well wait for the ansewer form him????


...............................................................................................................waiting................................................................................................................................


O'h I have to close the window????



Ok ok,......




If you read this far hoping for some sense out of this I'm sorry, I will apologize now, for not being able to help you at the moment....

I will also apologize now for anyone who has read this far and was hoping for something that made sense.

Love ya Kelly!!!!


See we could have used one of those little hearts right there!!!!

( in a non-gay way) Not that I have anything against gays, O'h maybe I do but at least I put it out on the table!!!!! Perehaps that's better than makin shit up about them....God am I going to regret this in the morning.....


C Smile


Namasday Peace, love, can't we all get along????


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jul 12, 2013, 5:54 PM)




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