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Packing questions

 

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pertierr  (A 48153)

Jun 28, 2013, 11:57 PM
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Packing questions Can't Post

Hello,

I am learning to pack(again) after a long break from the sport. I never really did it often the first time around, and this time I am determined to learn to do it right. I have run into a few questions (PRO packing):

1. I got a new rig with a new Spectre 190, it has 4 jumps on it. I am sure everyone who is learning to pack thinks at some point the bag is too small, but i've heard a couple of comments at the DZ that this one is small for the canopy. I thought i'd get some more input, I've attached a picture, is this too small? It feels like even after removing all the air it still doesn't close all the way and the rubber bands still touch the canopy.

2.I've been dissecting my packjobs. I pull the bag through deployment, and then peel back the tail to look at the lines. I've attached a picture of what it looks like, is this what you'd expect? It seems the brake lines always end up on the sides due to all the tucking after laying the canopy down. I found a similar question on this forum but I haven't found a picture of what a 'correct' pack job looks like after it's been bagged/closed and then unbagged.

Thanks.
Attachments: photo 1.JPG (905 KB)
  photo 2.JPG (729 KB)
  photo 3.JPG (571 KB)


monkycndo  (D License)

Jun 29, 2013, 7:34 AM
Post #2 of 27 (5711 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Packing a new canopy can be a real PITA. It's hard to tell by the photos, but it looks like the corners of the bag are not stuffed full. If that is the case, once you have the canopy in the bag, massage the canopy around to fill the corners. Moving the bulk from the center/top of the bag into the corners will let the bag close more completely and also make the container close easier.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jun 29, 2013, 9:44 AM
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Re: [monkycndo] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Does having the canopy partially touching the rubber bands like that pose any kind of risk to malfunction, off-heading opening, or added wear to your main? In other words does stuff the corners to get the whole thing in there give you any advantage or is it more cosmetic (I.e. it just looks like a cleaner pack job?)


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jun 29, 2013, 11:18 AM
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Re: [3mpire] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

3mpire wrote:
Does having the canopy partially touching the rubber bands like that pose any kind of risk to malfunction, off-heading opening, or added wear to your main? In other words does stuff the corners to get the whole thing in there give you any advantage or is it more cosmetic (I.e. it just looks like a cleaner pack job?)

It's all about bulk management - by not stuffing the corners, you are not utilizing 100% volume of the bag/main packtray, and thus you will have much harder time closing the container (unless you are the 1% who has a container sized for a canopy larger than the one you are packing into it).

think of this as a cabinet where you place thigs only at the very front, and don't use the back, and then complain about running out of cabinet space.


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jun 29, 2013, 4:42 PM
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Re: [likestojump] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks all for the feedback, I hadn't thought of this and was not trying to fill in the corners after it was in the bag. I will give this a try. I'm trying to do a lot of packs at home to practice and hopefully break it in a little so it's easier to pack...


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 2, 2013, 12:48 PM
Post #6 of 27 (4794 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

3mpire wrote:
Does having the canopy partially touching the rubber bands like that pose any kind of risk to malfunction, off-heading opening, or added wear to your main? In other words does stuff the corners to get the whole thing in there give you any advantage or is it more cosmetic (I.e. it just looks like a cleaner pack job?)

I've never asked the question but I would assume that the friction from the stretched bands rubbing against the canopy would create added wear on the canopy. More-so than a rubber band that is not stretched over the canopy.


obatzda

Jul 2, 2013, 2:44 PM
Post #7 of 27 (4663 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

it realy does look hell of tight if u ask me, im packing a storm190 also pretty new and my pod doesnt look like that.

im not sayin its impossible to pack it but u wont get happy also, maybe trade that spectre for a pulse same size that will pack much easier.

what rig u got what containersize?


(This post was edited by obatzda on Jul 2, 2013, 2:59 PM)


BKS60  (C 41583)

Jul 2, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Well this may help or not! I jump a 230zp on a rig the previous owner was jumping a 176. Packing it kicked my a$$ for the first 5o jumps or so! I had canvas hanging out that made the pack job look like sh!t.
One of the AFF instructors had me pack one of his rigs and it just seemed to jump in the D-bag. Since then packing mine has been a cake walk.
I guess I just had to get over the size issue!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 3, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #9 of 27 (4241 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

pertierr wrote:
Hello,

I am learning to pack(again) after a long break from the sport. I never really did it often the first time around, and this time I am determined to learn to do it right. I have run into a few questions (PRO packing):

1. I got a new rig with a new Spectre 190, it has 4 jumps on it. I am sure everyone who is learning to pack thinks at some point the bag is too small, but i've heard a couple of comments at the DZ that this one is small for the canopy. I thought i'd get some more input, I've attached a picture, is this too small? It feels like even after removing all the air it still doesn't close all the way and the rubber bands still touch the canopy.

2.I've been dissecting my packjobs. I pull the bag through deployment, and then peel back the tail to look at the lines. I've attached a picture of what it looks like, is this what you'd expect? It seems the brake lines always end up on the sides due to all the tucking after laying the canopy down. I found a similar question on this forum but I haven't found a picture of what a 'correct' pack job looks like after it's been bagged/closed and then unbagged.

Thanks.

What I can't see from your pictures is how much tension is on your line stows?

Can't tell from the pictures but it looks as though you need to start double wraping.

Do you have 7 - 8 9- Lbs of force when you pull on your lines?
Remember the goal is to have all of your lines in the center...

Have someone near you dissect their pack jobs to see what it should look like...Ask around learn what o good job looks like!
C

And what is up with the fabric? That dosen't look like any Spectre I have ever seen before? Did you have to wait 6 monthes for that ? can you post a full flight picture? Smile


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jul 3, 2013, 8:16 AM)


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 3, 2013, 11:32 AM
Post #10 of 27 (4130 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry for the late reply. Been on the road, riding planes I can't jump from. Frown

The container is a new Mirage M4 (G4.1). Their service has been beyond phenomenal(custom rig in 2 weeks!), i'm sure that if I needed any adjustments they would oblige. However, since I have so little experience, I just don't have a good feel for how much easier/smaller it gets as it wears in. It could be that it's tight now, but after 100 pack jobs it's just right(?), along with (hopefully)improving packing skills as well.

Regarding packing an older canopy, I recently took a canopy packing class at my DZ which got me from not being able to do anything, all the way to actually bagging and closing the container. I learned so much, it would've taken me months to learn just from videos. Anyway, they had me try to bag an older Safire with many many jumps on it, it felt more like folding paper and it was so much easier to put in the bag.

The point about the force on the stows is something I have been wondering about. The PD videos swear by double stows. However when I have had people pack this canopy, they always use single locking stows and double else where. It opens great, very soft, which is why I got a spectre. The single locking stows are pretty tight due to the bag not closing completely, but I will get a fish scale and measure this, it's something I've been wanting to check.

As for the material on the canopy, it's actually a stock PD canopy! If you go to their stock list, this is part number SP-190-CP7-0027. They just walked it from PD to Mirage, no waiting.

My plan right now is to pack it at home non-stop. Since I need the practice anyway, i'm pretty sure I can put 50 or more packjobs on it, and see how it handles then.

One thing for sure, if I get this thing bagged any better I will be posting a picture in case I can never do it again.

Thanks!


(This post was edited by pertierr on Jul 3, 2013, 11:52 AM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jul 3, 2013, 11:46 AM
Post #11 of 27 (4118 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi pertierr,

Quote:
They just shipped it from PD to Mirage, no waiting.

I'm thinking that they probably just walked it over:

Mirage Systems, Inc.
1501-A Lexington Ave.
DeLand, FL 32724

Performance Designs
1300 E. International Speedway Blvd.
DeLand, FL 32724

Tongue

JerryBaumchen


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 3, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #12 of 27 (4098 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I have corrected my post. Sly


payload  (B 39297)

Jul 4, 2013, 9:45 AM
Post #13 of 27 (3864 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:

And what is up with the fabric? That dosen't look like any Spectre I have ever seen before? Did you have to wait 6 monthes for that ? can you post a full flight picture? Smile

PD stock color.

http://www.dropzone.com/...arge_dirkspectre.JPG


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 4, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: [payload] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

That's awesome, Spectre's are awesome!
C

Thanks!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 4, 2013, 4:23 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

I wanted to post this , again , so that you would have it: PD Hard Openings.

I see also that they changed the bag design again, your picture looked a little like the G3 bag. In the grand scheme of things I think you are ok, but on the other hand I read the manuals that come with the rig like gospel AND FOR THAT REASON anything that differs from the manual gets my attention. AND your bag differs from the pictures in the G4 manual that is currently on the web?????? This is worthy of future explanation by the manufacturer!

It is not uncommon for manufacturers to do things like this, although I'm not happy with this practice...

I was trying to find pictures from the manufacturer in their manuals to show you,...some of the pictures I found show most bag's completely covering all canopy material. BUT there are more than a few showing a couple of inch's of material peeking thru. With my pack jobs I generally have about 1 and 1/2 inches showing. But I double stow as well. If I single stow, my bag looks very unsound and about 2 to three inches are showing.

Perhaps as I already mentioned a call will alleviate your concerns?

Keep in mind that it might not appear that you need to double stow, BUT over time, once in the closed container, your pack job might compress even further and thus lessining the exsisting stow force, as the bag gets compressed over time!!!!.

I also want to raise what I left out in the eairlier post is that, sometimes, and in a great moon, components get mixed up. I'm somewhat shur this isn't the case, but I'm not absolutely sure in your case.

I also ask that you check your rubber bands, sometimes the non-standard size from Keener sneeks into supplys unnoticed. I know there is no specific standard, (there is) but the standard size of 2 x 3/8 x .062 is what most are using these days. There is a smaller standard, and again checking with the manufacturer in case thay made a change?


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jul 4, 2013, 4:32 PM)
Attachments: PD Hard Openings.pdf (98.4 KB)


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:52 PM
Post #16 of 27 (3373 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for taking the time to chime in.

I've attached a picture of the closest to a 'closed bag' I've gotten, thanks to the feedback and tips from people on this forum. It took a bit of taking the air out once it's bagged, and pulling the lid down, repeat, etc. Also I adjusted a little after it's bagged to fill in the corners, but mostly I made my first S-fold(warning label) a tad smaller. I was doing the 'karate chop' about 6-inches above the warning label, I found if I moved it closer to the warning label then instead of having a wide bottom fold which sticks out of the bag, the excess is on the 'ears' side at the bottom of the bag which I ~think~ is preferable since there are no lines there and it makes it close/fill in the corners better.

I have 25 pack jobs on it now, and it's noticeably easier to handle.

Also, I got a fish scale and measure the forced required to release the locking stows. I found them to be 7.5-9 pounds. I placed the plastic bag the rig came in under the d-bag so it would remove some of the friction when dragging the bag on carpet. I wrapped the bridle carefully around the hook on the fish scale, and pulled very slowly horizontally as shown in the PD video. It also seems like the lower measurements (7.5lbs) are when the rubber bands have no twists on them. If they have one or two twists from when I pull my fingers out, then it's about 1lb more.

I measured the max force required to pull the canopy out of the bag once the stows are undone and came up with ~11lbs. I'm not sure this number is meaningful since the conditions are so different at 120mph.

I will do some more tests, I will try a different surface and measuring double locking stows as well.

Thanks for pointing out the d-bag difference with the manual. That is the sort of thing that as a beginner I saw but figured there was another explanation for it, like perhaps they have different d-bag options? I did a search and found this on here:

http://www.dropzone.com/...%20question;#4447720

But will still check with them regarding the d-bag.

Thanks!


(This post was edited by pertierr on Jul 7, 2013, 2:52 PM)
Attachments: photo.JPG (647 KB)


evan85  (C 41367)

Jul 7, 2013, 4:33 PM
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Not on the packing issue, but my Mirage G4.1 (which is less than a year old) came with the same dbag you have -- 3 locking stows, 2 front-back loops on which to attach nonlocking stows, and a final nonlocking stow in the center. I checked this weekend per my recollection and I could still see "Mirage G4.1" handwritten in white on the inside of the bag. I'm guessing this is the correct bag they use now. Anyone have different information on this?


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 8, 2013, 5:52 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Just measured, double stowing gives me 15-18lbs force. While single stowing hasn't given me less than 7lbs, often it is right at 7lbs, I would think this means any change could drop it under those 7lbs.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 9, 2013, 8:16 AM
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

The high end of the PD paper says 12 is preferable?

Want to try the smaller size bands and see what happens?


C

Using what yo just said then double stowing might be the thing to do, : "I would think this means any change could drop it under those 7lbs. "

ferris, anyone?? ...


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 9, 2013, 1:56 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I don't think I'm comfortable with it going under 7lbs. Pirate I am also seeing that it gets close to 7lbs when it packs 'neater' since the canopy is not pushing the stows, which is where i'm trying to get to.

I'm ordering some rubber bands and also some tube stows, and will re-measure to see if anything fits the "sweet spot"...


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 10, 2013, 7:34 AM
Post #21 of 27 (2577 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

pertierr wrote:
Just measured, double stowing gives me 15-18lbs force. While single stowing hasn't given me less than 7lbs, often it is right at 7lbs, I would think this means any change could drop it under those 7lbs.


"I would think this means any change could drop it under those 7lbs."

I du-no but maybe that's why the double stows are preferable?

Perhaps the PD paper takes into account some "shrinkage"

You could try double stowing, pack the rig for a couple of days, and then measure it?

It might come down to the risk of making a decision between way to loose, which is a very documented and real life threatening issue as compared with a little tight? Remember as your packing gets better, the canopy is going to fit more easily, and as the canopy gets a little older it is also going to fit a little smaller, for both of these reasons then it's pointing to a double wrap.

And if all of this isn't confusing enough? What is the current humidity at your location? This makes a big difference in packing volume as well.

Anyways I wouldn't get to worried about this, sounds like yo are on the right track and hopefully some have paid attention to the effort required to do what the manufacturers suggests and the lenghths yo go to be as safe as you can...
Smile
C


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 16, 2013, 5:59 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I did some tests with small (1 1/4" x 3/8") single stowed and large (2" x 3/8") double stowed. I simulated deployments with a fish scale on 3 locking stows only using the same packjob to reduce variations from that. All bights where ~2.5"

The single stowed small bands gave 7-9.5lbs across 10 tests. On one instance one of the stows took 6lbs.

Interestingly enough, on the first try with double stowed large bands, one band took 20lbs and broke when it unstowed.

However with large bands double stowed I consistently get more than 12lbs (typically ~ 15-16lbs) across 10 tests.

The best seems to be double wrapping the large bands on the bag side and then single wrapping on the lines gives me 10lbs. I think i'll keep this approach.


(This post was edited by pertierr on Jul 16, 2013, 7:20 PM)
Attachments: photo.JPG (540 KB)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 7:36 PM
Post #23 of 27 (2151 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The best seems to be double wrapping the large bands on the bag side and then single wrapping on the lines

All of them are "on the bag". The terms usually used are locking stows and non-locking stows. Watch out for the condition of the locking stow bands especially, you don't want them breaking before they do their job.

I would never have spent so much time, you must be a very careful at packing.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jul 16, 2013, 7:38 PM)


pertierr  (A 48153)

Jul 16, 2013, 8:55 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I should clarify, by "on the bag" I meant:

When installing a large rubber band, using a double knot around the strap on the bag. Then single stowing the lines. This gives me ~10lbs.

As opposed to what I was doing before which was a typical single knot on the bag strap, but then double stowing which gives me ~16lbs.

Newbie enthusiasm. I read some guy sewed a canopy from scratch.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:01 PM
Post #25 of 27 (2047 views)
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Re: [pertierr] Packing questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi pertierr,

Quote:
Newbie enthusiasm. I read some guy sewed a canopy from scratch.

I did it. I was not a 'newbie' at the time but obviously, I had the enthusiasm.

It can be done; others have done it. Quite a number of years ago there was a company that would give you a kit of materials, all cut out, so you could sew your own canopy.

It's not easy but it is not rocket science ( which I only slightly understand Crazy ).

JerryBaumchen

PS) Nice write-up on your testing.


(This post was edited by JerryBaumchen on Jul 16, 2013, 9:02 PM)


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