Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
bleeding off altitude on final leg?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

andy2

Apr 17, 2003, 6:50 AM
Post #1 of 29 (2076 views)
Shortcut
bleeding off altitude on final leg? Can't Post

If it looks like youre going to overshoot your landing target and possibly crash into the highway, trees, or some other hazard, but you have enough room to bleed off some altitude, what is the best way for a beginner to do this? With gentle S turns, or with a few high up flares to stop foward motion? Which is the most effective? Thanks.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 17, 2003, 7:00 AM
Post #2 of 29 (2055 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

There called brake lines for a reason.Wink As directed by your instructors you should investigate flying, turning, and landing in brakes. You don't have to "flare" to slow your canopy down. As you watch others at the DZ you won't see many people using brakes, but its part of the flight envelope, to different extents, of the canopies and you should learn how to use them.


andy2

Apr 17, 2003, 7:09 AM
Post #3 of 29 (2047 views)
Shortcut
Re: [councilman24] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

so flying in on quarter or half brakes then letting up to no toggle pressure to prepare for the final flare is not that uncommon?


SkySlut  (D License)

Apr 17, 2003, 7:22 AM
Post #4 of 29 (2039 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Flying in deep brakes with a no-wind condition isnt going to help you very much. If you are going to be flying in brakes...make sure that you let the toggles all the way up for the last 10 seconds before you flare to get maximum lift out of your flare. If you let the brakes up too late...the canopy will surge forward, pounding you into the ground. I made that mistake once...I wont be doing that again. When you have a good amount of wind, flying in brakes can be very effective. On a no wind situation, S-turns will be your best bet.

Play with these 2 methods and combine them to get your desired effect. I would also recommend carefully watching other canopies while you are at the DZ. You would be amazed to see what you will learn. Its almost like clockwork. On no wind days, people overshoot the target...on highwind days, they undershoot. I would also recommend taking the walk if you overshoot, unless its a safety issue. To work on accuracy...its going to help you to get feedback from your landing pattern & setup. For example, say you overshoot your target by 50 feet...then you go up with the same canopy and the same wind conditions, now you may want to set up on final 50 feet back than where you were on your first landing. This, of course, is if all safety conditions (traffic, hazards, etc.) are good. Then you can start to learn altitudes, angles, your canopy performance & wind conditions. Anyone can do S turns and land on their target, but you really arent "learning" from doing that and plus doing some wide sweeping Sturns can create a hazard for other jumpers on a busy DZ or smaller landing area.

There is a lot more involved in this but that is it in a nutshell. Hope this makes sense and helps.


jtval  (D 26340)

Apr 17, 2003, 7:40 AM
Post #5 of 29 (2023 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SkySlut] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

be careful not to let the toggles up too low.
if you watch a canopy do this in the air youll see that when you let up on the toggles/brakes, your canopy dives downward. it can hurt if you do that too low and arent aware of how the main performs!

try a little front riser input...(learn this UP high first then take it lower etc)


andy2

Apr 17, 2003, 8:08 AM
Post #6 of 29 (2005 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the quick replies. Definitely like that students have to pull at 5k, this gives me a few minutes to play around with rear and front risers, not to mention perfect flat turns. Thanks for the input.


markbaur  (D 6108)

Apr 17, 2003, 8:09 AM
Post #7 of 29 (2004 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so flying in on quarter or half brakes then letting up to no toggle pressure to prepare for the final flare is not that uncommon?

Most canopies improve glide ratio in quarter brakes: in light winds, you'll go farther than you would with the toggles all the way up.

Mark


Ron

Apr 17, 2003, 8:16 AM
Post #8 of 29 (1995 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SkySlut] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Flying in deep brakes with a no-wind condition isnt going to help you very much

Depends on the canopy....I can bring a StarTrac I straight down in no winds. Same could be said for a student canopy.

Brakes can be used very well as long as you said you let the canopy fly before the flair...

But turning can increase speed, which is very bad.

I would say above 500 feet...and after checking for traffic, S-turns are good...After that brakes are better.

Ron


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Apr 17, 2003, 8:34 AM
Post #9 of 29 (1987 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it looks like youre going to overshoot your landing target and possibly crash into the highway, trees, or some other hazard, but you have enough room to bleed off some altitude, what is the best way for a beginner to do this? With gentle S turns, or with a few high up flares to stop foward motion? Which is the most effective? Thanks.

I noticed that JTVal has already mentioned this but I like to use my front risers in this sort of scenario. The only downside for the newbie is that it is going to add extra forward and vertical momentum that you may not be used to and may not be comfortable with. Try this at altitude first and then try it with some wind in your face before you try it on a no-wind jump. Wink


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Apr 17, 2003, 8:34 AM)


tombuch  (D 8514)

Apr 17, 2003, 9:26 AM
Post #10 of 29 (1948 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CanuckInUSA] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I noticed that JTVal has already mentioned this but I like to use my front risers in this sort of scenario. The only downside for the newbie is that it is going to add extra forward and vertical momentum that you may not be used to and may not be comfortable with. Try this at altitude first and then try it with some wind in your face before you try it on a no-wind jump. Wink

That also increases your forward speed (as you mentioned) and will increase landing distance. If you are already tight on space you may not have enough ground in front of you to glide/run/surf off all that extra speed.

Somebody else mentioned using light breaks, but that can increase lift in some cases, further extending the flight of the parachute.

Deep breaks will generally sink the parachute. As others have mentioned, you should discuss this with your instructor and practice up high. Every parachute is different, so know how YOUR parachute handles things like deep breaks, 1/4 breaks, front riser descents. It's all part of skydiving!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 17, 2003, 9:38 AM
Post #11 of 29 (1938 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CanuckInUSA] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Next jump, pull high and play around with your canopy until 2,000.
Once you are satisfied that you have good canopy overhead, slowly pull the steering toggles all the way down. Make a mental note of where the toggles are when the canopy stalls. (Note most student canopies have really long steering lines making it really difficult to stall them).
Now decide the "deepest" brakes you are willing to fly on final approach - usually 4" above the stall point. Pound your fists into your thighs at that point to reinforce your mental memory of the 3/4 brakes position.
Since you opened higher than everyone else, you are probably clear of traffic, but look around anyways. Pick a landmark and fly towards it for 10 or 15 seconds. Note whether you are overshooting or undershooting your landmark.
Now apply 1/4 brakes (neck level) and note whether you are overshooting or undershooting your landmark.
Repeat this exercise with half (chest level) and 3/4 brakes (hip level).
Below 2,000' concentrate on flying a standard "boxed" landing pattern. Plan to turn on final a bit too high so you will overshoot. Apply 1/2 brakes, wait a few seconds for the canopy to settle down, then note your new glide angle. Are you still overshooting the target?
Below 150' ease the toggles up and do a regular flared landing.
Yes, I know that this sounds like too much to do on one jump. It takes most jumpers three or four jumps to "clue in" and another thousand jumps to fine tune their accuracy approach. But the sooner you start playing around with flying in half brakes, the sooner your accuracy will improve.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 17, 2003, 9:42 AM
Post #12 of 29 (1934 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most DZs will teach S-turns on final above 100 feet. Here's the key to S-turns:

An S-turn is a 90 degree turn, so it's going to take you off the wind line, it also means you're technically out of the pattern, so be sure you've checked to the side you're turning to, including above and below you before you turn.

Once you make a 90 degree turn, let it fly for a few seconds, keeping one eye on your target, and another looking out for other jumpers in the air. Then turn yourself 90 degrees back onto the wind line and re-check for distance and penetration. You should never turn your back on your target...if you do, you're doing something wrong...and very dangerous!

If you need to bleed off more altitude, simply do the same thing, but going the other way (keeping you from flying outside the edge of the field).

Here's what most students screw up when doing this:

The term 'S-turn' is a bit deceiving. It's not a gentle swaying turn making an S path in the air (we call that a "gentle sashe"...although I can't spell itWink), it's a good, positive 90 degree turn, followed by another good, positive 90 degree turn back onto the wind line.

The other issue students often have with S-turns, is how to judge where you're actually going to land in the field. Some people use the "45 degree rule", but what you're really concerned about is landing in the field and not taking too long to determine if you're going to make it or not, right? For some people the 45 degree rule just takes too long to work well. Just concentrate on getting into the field first. With more experience, you can fine tune where you land in the field. A quick and easy way to judge if you're going to overshoot is by simply looking at the far edge of the field as you're flying towards it. If it's not moving, or is moving towards you, you need to do some S-turns. If it's moving away from you, you're going to land in the field.

This is something that's important in doing S-turns, for a few reasons. First, you need to do this right as you turn onto final, so you've got time to execute your S-turns before your no-turn deck (ours is 100 ft.). Another reason for learning this technique is that you can use it later on to refine your accuracy by doing the same thing on a given target, then refining your approach...but you might want to wait until you get more comfortable getting into the field first.

Accuracy is something that is sadly overlooked by many new jumpers. If you have any illusions of doing DEMOS, flying HP canopies, jumping at any DZ with a tight(er) landing area, or simply downsizing some day, you'd better learn to refine you're accuracy now! It just gets harder the faster you're flying and the faster you're coming out of the air, so learn it now.Tongue

Find a canopy coach and work on it!


Casch

Apr 17, 2003, 10:24 AM
Post #13 of 29 (1915 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rigging65] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Accuracy is something that is sadly overlooked by many new jumpers. If you have any illusions of doing DEMOS, flying HP canopies, jumping at any DZ with a tight(er) landing area, or simply downsizing some day, you'd better learn to refine you're accuracy now! It just gets harder the faster you're flying and the faster you're coming out of the air, so learn it now.

Hmm, accuracy (and landing safely) is my main objective on pretty much EVERY canopy flight. The only time I'm not working on accuracy is when there is too much traffic in the air, I don't want to suffer from target fixation when 6+ people are landing in the same field. I was under the impression that all students were supposed to be working on accuracy on every jump?


BoobieCootie  (C 33103)

Apr 17, 2003, 10:34 AM
Post #14 of 29 (1904 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Casch] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was under the impression that all students were supposed to be working on accuracy on every jump?

I think every jump should focus on accuracy - even when swopping in on a SkyMaster 290CoolLaugh


andrewstewart

Apr 17, 2003, 2:22 PM
Post #15 of 29 (1835 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so flying in on quarter or half brakes then letting up to no toggle pressure to prepare for the final flare is not that uncommon?

I see Tandem masters doing it all the time.


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Apr 17, 2003, 2:28 PM
Post #16 of 29 (1829 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

s-turns are good for a student canopy pilot.

Double front risers are better. Play around above 2000' w/ riser inputs and see how much altitude you can drop by pulling both front risers down. This is assuming your student gear has dive loops on the front risers.Wink

Ken


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Apr 17, 2003, 2:38 PM
Post #17 of 29 (1821 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Samurai136] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told NOT to do that because of the student CyPReS's on the rigs. Plus i found the riser pressures too high with no loops there anyway


Katzeye  (C 31237)

Apr 17, 2003, 4:25 PM
Post #18 of 29 (1793 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SkydiveMonkey] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, how about this. You're at 300 feet. You KNOW you're going to overshoot your target. Fence around entire landing area, and right in your landing path. No wind.

NOW, how does a young jumper bleed off enough altitude without becoming a wham burger from a low turn or becoming fence pizza due to overshooting?


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Apr 17, 2003, 4:28 PM
Post #19 of 29 (1788 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Katzeye] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

that case, rear riser, over the fence, land other side. Or flare turn round the other way.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 17, 2003, 4:34 PM
Post #20 of 29 (1783 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Katzeye] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

>You're at 300 feet. You KNOW you're going to overshoot your target.
> Fence around entire landing area, and right in your landing path. No
> wind.

Option 1: aim for a tree or a bush; land in it. It's pretty easy to avoid a fence and hit a tree. This is actually the safest option for a low-time jumper, if you're uncertain of your ability to turn low and avoid obstacles at the same time.

Option 2: Turn in any safe direction (that will clear the fence) using a flat turn. Land.

Option 3: S turn once; make sure you stop in time to pick a landing direction. You have about 10 seconds to do that.


(This post was edited by billvon on Apr 17, 2003, 4:36 PM)


jtval  (D 26340)

Apr 17, 2003, 6:28 PM
Post #21 of 29 (1759 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

this may sound wierd but when your Up at 5k(pull time)
play around...MAKE SURE YOU DONT FORGET ABOU TRAFFIC/OTHER CANOPIES...

if you arent sure about your glide/ angle of incidence

TURN YOUR HEAD to the side and spit. you will see it fall away form you at different angles it will kinda help (but those below you might not be happy) LOLShockedTongue

pull front risers you should be able to feel the difference.

pull to full brakes and spit

Pull to half brakes and spit. LOL

sounds goofy but it will help you see the difference


andy2

Apr 17, 2003, 6:34 PM
Post #22 of 29 (1753 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jtval] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice tip! I never thought about that! That would be a great way to judge direction and speed with no stable relative landmark. Right now I'm using the ground when I'm low, which isn't an option up high. So if I see somebody with spit on their helmet I just turn and look the other way...right? Cool


jtval  (D 26340)

Apr 17, 2003, 7:15 PM
Post #23 of 29 (1740 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

haha not just turn and look away..turn and LAUGH as you look away! lol

just dont forget to keep an eye out for traffic.Wink


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Apr 18, 2003, 7:34 AM
Post #24 of 29 (1694 views)
Shortcut
Re: [andy2] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

The best way to avoid the too high on final scenario is to practice good pattern discipline, which means that you are aware of your altitude and position in relation to the landing area at all times. If you start your downwind leg at the the proper time/altitude then you shouldn't have much of a problem with being high on final. I see way too many jumpers who open, then imediately fly downwind of the landing area without regard to altitude. They spend the remainder of thier canopy ride S-turning, spiraling, and otherwise hogging the airspace that other jumpers need for thier final approach. The area immediately downwind of the target is not for excessive manuevering, it is for setting up to land. If you do find yourself in the high on final position, I would recommend pulling your toggles down to shoulder level or slightly below to bleed off altitude, letting them up with sufficient time to build speed for landing.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 18, 2003, 8:39 AM
Post #25 of 29 (1680 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Casch] bleeding off altitude on final leg? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hmm, accuracy (and landing safely) is my main objective on pretty much EVERY canopy flight. The only time I'm not working on accuracy is when there is too much traffic in the air, I don't want to suffer from target fixation when 6+ people are landing in the same field. I was under the impression that all students were supposed to be working on accuracy on every jump?

EVERYONE is supposed to be working on accuracy on EVERY jump. Of course, EVERYONE is supposed to do gear checks before every jump, protect their handles when they get into the plane, keep up on current ADs on their equipment, keep their rigs in date, be aware of weather conditions and keep themselves out of harms way, the list goes on...how many of these things are done on EVERY jump??? For some jumpers, the answer is "all", however for many others, the answer is "a few".

The fact is, MOST jumpers don't know how to actually work on accuracy, other than just going out and staying current. And there is a difference between traditional accuracy and sport or swoop accuracy...does everyone know the difference? What I was trying to get across is that there are actual procedures that can help you learn faster.

If you honestly think that EVERYONE is working on accuracy on EVERY jump, you should get out more. Complacency kills...and it does it to our friends at least a few times a year.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)