Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Rough year for aircraft already

 


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Jun 10, 2013, 7:32 AM
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Rough year for aircraft already Can't Post

Clean it up people. It's been a bad year for aircraft incidents already. And looks like every one of them could have been salvaged by better emergency training and execution. 'Controlled glide into crash site'..... not good.

We complain about having the FAA on our backs and yet we fan the flames....
Attachments: So you think safety is expensive.pdf (280 KB)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 10, 2013, 3:43 PM
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Re: [tkhayes] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said, TK. The feds aren't usually too quick to threaten a crack down when skydiving incidents peak, but they certainly will for aircraft issues.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jun 14, 2013, 9:30 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

Nice picture.

Taking this opportunity, once again, pilots are not practicing the stall spin at or near gross.

Most of the published or here at DZ.com incidents have not been the takeoff type of disaster that is awaiting the un-current Cessna (whatever) Operator.

Take a look at the picture TK has provided, notice the MAJOR front end damage in the majority of the pictures. This is indicative of the rapiditidy and speed of the stall spin crash. This is pilot error and I don't care if the engine quits!

Your tame little aircraft at or near gross, when it stalls, falls from the sky like it is being pulled by God at over a thousand miles per hour!

Every stall spin pilot survivor has said the same thing:


"I never thought it would move that fast."

Practice with stalls and spins is woefully LACKING in the commercial flying bizz. Because of money!


These types of crashes have nothing to do with the number of hours you have! This is a skill that needs to be practiced period!!


This is how to tell if you have a pilot dickhead:

Question to pilot: "Have you practiced slow flight and stalls, passed the point of a full stall, in the last 60 days?

Answere: "Yes." (This is great news.)



Answere: "I've got 2000 hours, and have been flying since I was 12." <<<<(You have an unsafe dickhead on your hands.)


As a jumper you have every right to speak with your pilots, this blind faith and stereotypical trust that every pilot, esp the pilot flying "your" jump aircraft is "the best," is self delusional bullshit!

I'll take a current low time pilot that practices their EP's on a regular basis over a dickhead with 10,000 hours anyday!

It's your life people, and your right!

A good pilot is expecting your questioning, and welcomes it!

C

Angelic


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 17, 2013, 7:05 PM
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Re: [tkhayes] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

So far it looks like an even worse year for skydivers...

Perhaps both groups need to drop back and punt and reconsider some of the training and gear requirements.

Perhaps some continuing education requirements for skydivers like pilots already have.

Biannual skydive review? RSL and Cyprus requirement? Age limitations or restrictions requiring skill and emergency procedure testing?

Maybe a third class medical should be required for all jumpers with a second class for tandem masters.

Food for thought, pilots who fly for fun require a 3rd class unless they are flying light sport, then no medical is required, however they are restricted to small, low horsepower aircraft that can only go so fast with only 1 passenger. Commercial pilots that fly for compensation or hire, like a tandem master, must have class 2 medicals.

Just a thought...


(This post was edited by twatterpilot on Jun 17, 2013, 7:41 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 18, 2013, 8:09 AM
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Re: [twatterpilot] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

twatterpilot wrote:

Food for thought, pilots who fly for fun require a 3rd class unless they are flying light sport, then no medical is required, however they are restricted to small, low horsepower aircraft that can only go so fast with only 1 passenger. Commercial pilots that fly for compensation or hire, like a tandem master, must have class 2 medicals.

Just a thought...

It's a mystery to me that flying a 160HP C172 apparently makes a pilot more prone to medical emergency than flying a light sport aircraft. Maybe a medic can explain.

Then again, it's a government regulation so it doesn't have to make sense.


flaperon  (C 26751)

Jun 18, 2013, 8:16 AM
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Re: [kallend] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not the medical emegency that's the problem, it's the damage that's done when a larger airplane hits the ground. The rulemakers had to draw the line somewhere...

kallend wrote:
twatterpilot wrote:

Food for thought, pilots who fly for fun require a 3rd class unless they are flying light sport, then no medical is required, however they are restricted to small, low horsepower aircraft that can only go so fast with only 1 passenger. Commercial pilots that fly for compensation or hire, like a tandem master, must have class 2 medicals.

Just a thought...

It's a mystery to me that flying a 160HP C172 apparently makes a pilot more prone to medical emergency than flying a light sport aircraft. Maybe a medic can explain.

Then again, it's a government regulation so it doesn't have to make sense.


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 18, 2013, 12:40 PM
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Re: [flaperon] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

They were somewhat mimicking the European and FAI type rules with the Light Sport category.

I think they did an ok job. There are other restrictions about flying over populated areas, controlled airspace etc.

There is more to it than most realize.


Herckydude  (D License)

Jun 19, 2013, 5:54 AM
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Re: [twatterpilot] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Practice with stalls and spins is woefully LACKING in the commercial flying bizz. Because of money!


These types of crashes have nothing to do with the number of hours you have! This is a skill that needs to be practiced period!!

I'm sure most pilots are more than willing to practice stalls, slow flight, spins, forced landings etc... with the DZ's plane or another if the DZ is willing to pay for the hours flown.
But I guess most DZ's don't want to spend money on flying around empty planes, as most skydivers are not happy to pay extra money for their jumps to have some extra money to allow the pilots to "play" with their airplanes.
Just my input...


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 19, 2013, 11:26 AM
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Re: [Herckydude] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know of any jump plane besides the Stearman and Pitts biplanes that are actually certified for intentional spins. The Cessna 172 can spin when flying under utility category.

Bottom line, if a DZO wants the pilot to get more proficient in spin entry/spin/spin recovery/prevention, then the DZO should pay for said pilot to go to a flight school/instructor that has an aircraft that is allowed to spin.

The goal is to have a pilot at the controls that WON'T spin to begin with. To only way to do that, is to teach how to do it, so they know how NOT to do it.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jun 20, 2013, 5:24 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

How many skydiving plane accidents have been the stall/spin type this year?
How many have been from fuel starvation?


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jun 20, 2013, 5:42 AM
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Re: [Herckydude] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

Once everyone leaves the pilot can stall the plane a bunch of times without significantly adding to turn times. Forced landings can be practiced to the runway. About the only thing you can't practice is spins.
And it doesn't really cost anything noticeable.

It's like a video guy practicing to swoop at the end of a working dive. All it takes is desire.


(This post was edited by DBCOOPER on Jun 20, 2013, 5:46 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 20, 2013, 3:21 PM
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Re: [twatterpilot] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

twatterpilot wrote:
I don't know of any jump plane besides the Stearman and Pitts biplanes that are actually certified for intentional spins. The Cessna 172 can spin when flying under utility category.

Bottom line, if a DZO wants the pilot to get more proficient in spin entry/spin/spin recovery/prevention, then the DZO should pay for said pilot to go to a flight school/instructor that has an aircraft that is allowed to spin.

The goal is to have a pilot at the controls that WON'T spin to begin with. To only way to do that, is to teach how to do it, so they know how NOT to do it.

All you need is an incipient spin to do that. No need for a fully developed spin.

(Yes, I have done spins, in a Cherokee (utility category), Pitts and 2-33 glider. No way I'd want to get remotely close to one in my Mooney)


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 20, 2013, 5:49 PM
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Re: [kallend] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

Spin training in any capacity is a GOOD thing. I prefer fully developed to incipient, but that is more personal preference.

Engine out training and not being a dumbass and running out of fuel is of more critical importance I think.

But to think that there is plenty of time to do airwork on the way down from altitude is just ignorant.

Any skydiver that wants to ride observer with a pair of headsets on listening to the radios with the pilot will quickly realize that the work load can get high, quick. And talk to any DZO/aircraft operator and ask if it is okay for the pilot to do airwork on the descent with loads waiting to go on the ground and see what the response is...


Bottom line, I will repeat.

Hire experience, hire talent, be willing to pay for it. Your aircraft and your customers will be better off for it.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jun 21, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Re: [twatterpilot] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

twatterpilot wrote:
But to think that there is plenty of time to do airwork on the way down from altitude is just ignorant.

You right if your talking about doing "air work". There is plenty of time to practice after they leave.To go from jump run speed to a full stall only takes about 10 seconds depending on what configuration you want to put the plane in. Every landing I do I try to simulate a forced landing if traffic permits.Did it yesterday with no difference in turn times. Try it.

I'm talking about 182s here.


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 21, 2013, 2:21 PM
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Rough year for aircraft already [In reply to] Can't Post

Every load I have flown is dead stick from green light to taxi off, unless my pattern gets interrupted by other traffic. 182 to King Air. Great practice to be in! I even teach my new primary students idle abeam the touchdown point to touchdown.

But yes, if you want to do a quick stall after last out, that won't take too much time. But to make a point to do a full stall series, properly, takes 8 to 10 minutes from start to finish.

Straight ahead, power off stall, in any configuration is a great maneuver to practice, but of limited value.

Power on departure stalls, loaded, turn stalls, power on and off, and power off, full flap, approach to landing stalls are the ones that need to really be practiced. The dreaded base to final, engine out, trying to stretch the glide-stall spin accident is the one that gets the vast majority of non-glider trained pilots.

This is the one that you can do after the jumpers get out. Two notches of flaps, power at zero thrust (In a 182 that is about 14 inches MP-I think) start at 65 kts, 20 degree bank, nose DOWN, slow down to full break.

The other one is climb power, first notch of flaps, loaded, straight ahead and turning(10 degrees bank).



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