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Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes?

 


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jun 5, 2013, 11:39 AM
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Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? Can't Post

I've never understood why you have hi performance wings available in relatively large sizes.

For example, a Katana 170.

By the time someone is going to fly that class of wing, it seems unlikely to me that they would fly one that large. For example if you're flying a Sabre2 135 and you want to move to a fully elliptical, going all the way back to a 170 isn't what people do. But by having it that large, you start getting into wing loadings that less experienced folks can rationalize. So why even sell them at that size? Is there a "good" reason?

Manufacturers wouldn't make and sell a wing at that size if there wasn't a market for it... so who buys them that should be buying them?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 5, 2013, 11:51 AM
Post #2 of 18 (3734 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

3mpire wrote:
I've never understood why you have hi performance wings available in relatively large sizes.

For example, a Katana 170.

By the time someone is going to fly that class of wing, it seems unlikely to me that they would fly one that large. For example if you're flying a Sabre2 135 and you want to move to a fully elliptical, going all the way back to a 170 isn't what people do. But by having it that large, you start getting into wing loadings that less experienced folks can rationalize. So why even sell them at that size? Is there a "good" reason?

Manufacturers wouldn't make and sell a wing at that size if there wasn't a market for it... so who buys them that should be buying them?

There are always the bigger guys that want to start their progress, or want a sportier canopy without downsizing too far.
Back when I was looking for new canopies, I tried a Katana 150, even though it was larger than the 135 I was jumping at the time. The Katana 150 is much sportier than say, a Sabre II 135. Being conservative while learning and growing is a valid approach to the journey.


Ron

Jun 5, 2013, 12:07 PM
Post #3 of 18 (3707 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've never understood why you have hi performance wings available in relatively large sizes.

What are fat people not allowed nice toys? Wink

Quote:
So why even sell them at that size? Is there a "good" reason?

Yes, you are assuming that all HP canopy pilots want super high WL's. The largest Stiletto I have jumped was a 135. It gave me a WL of about 1.2. A Stiletto at a 1.2 is still a really fun canopy with super fast turns and a great flare (1.4 is about the best WL IMO). But I weighed about 150 pounds back then. Why should a guy that weighs 200 pounds not be allowed the same WL and performance? A 200 pound jumper would need a 170 to get a 1.2 WL.

Not everyone wants a high WL just to fly a type of canopy. WL is just going to give you SPEED. The plane-form of the canopy is what gives the canopy performance.

WL = Speed
Design = Performance

Once you understand that, your question is answered.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jun 5, 2013, 12:12 PM
Post #4 of 18 (3693 views)
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Re: [Ron] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

That distinction makes sense, thanks for working that out for me. I figured jumper weight was a factor I was just making the incorrect assumption that heavier jumpers would want both the performance and speed.

I was working under the assumption that for many of these wings, the performance required a higher wingloading. i.e. a design might be intended to have a minimum wingloading in order for its intended flight characteristics. Perhaps that is still true, I just wasn't taking into account the full spectrum of body types.

But that's why I asked, sometimes your assumptions are right and people who *know* confirm it, or they give you additional information you hadn't considered and you learn a little.

Thanks!


Zlew  (D 21616)

Jun 5, 2013, 12:19 PM
Post #5 of 18 (3683 views)
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Re: [Ron] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1
I started jumping ellipticals at 1.3 to 1 or so.... LOVED the way they flew and responded. Over time I ended up downsizing to near 2:1 on the same wing. I loved the same wing at 1.3, and at over 1.9. I think a lot of people assume if you go down an aggressive canopy path your end goal is being a super swooper and off the wing loading charts. They might be at the peak of their performance higher on the wingloading chart, but they can still be sweet wings at lower WL's


Amazon  (D License)

Jun 5, 2013, 12:35 PM
Post #6 of 18 (3649 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

3mpire wrote:
I've never understood why you have hi performance wings available in relatively large sizes.

For example, a Katana 170.

By the time someone is going to fly that class of wing, it seems unlikely to me that they would fly one that large. For example if you're flying a Sabre2 135 and you want to move to a fully elliptical, going all the way back to a 170 isn't what people do. But by having it that large, you start getting into wing loadings that less experienced folks can rationalize. So why even sell them at that size? Is there a "good" reason?

Manufacturers wouldn't make and sell a wing at that size if there wasn't a market for it... so who buys them that should be buying them?

My Samurai 190 was built to make my ass look FAST.


sriddy  (D License)

Jun 5, 2013, 12:45 PM
Post #7 of 18 (3626 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

A 6'4" 250 lb jumper like myself loads a Katana 170 at around 1.6. I wouldn't consider it a lightly loaded high performance canopy in this case. Although I don't consider it loaded super heavy either.

Big guys want sporty canopies too, without having to make extreme jumps in wing loading. Cool


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 6, 2013, 5:03 AM
Post #8 of 18 (3403 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For example, a Katana 170.

By the time someone is going to fly that class of wing, it seems unlikely to me that they would fly one that large.

I know a guy with a Kat 150. He's been jumping for many years, has 1000's of jumps, and weighs about 210lbs. He's also an 'older' guy who doesn't want to have to (try to) slide out or sprint for any landing in lighter winds.

He's qualified to jump a HP canopy, and likes the way they fly, but has a need for a different speed range than some other Kat pilots.

Also, if you notice, the higher up the performance scale you go, the 'big' canopies get smaller. For example, the Velo is only available up to 120.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 6, 2013, 7:54 AM
Post #9 of 18 (3323 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

1) There are big fat skydivers who like high performance canopies.

2) Some newbies like jumping them because they figure the cool factor will still be there even in the larger sizes. Stupid, but that attitude does sell a few canopies.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 6, 2013, 8:01 AM
Post #10 of 18 (3317 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>>There are big fat skydivers Anvil Brothers who like high performance canopies.

Profiling is such an ugly thing. Wink


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jun 6, 2013, 9:09 AM
Post #11 of 18 (3275 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Also, if you notice, the higher up the performance scale you go, the 'big' canopies get smaller. For example, the Velo is only available up to 120.

I think this was the primary source of my question. Since I don't fly these canopies and haven't done a serious investigation of exactly how these canopies relate to each other, I tend to put them into a general "hi performance" bucket.

That a katana 170 is appropriate but a velo 170 isn't even manufactured validates that my basic understanding was in the ballpark, I just don't know enough about the individual platforms to know which would cut off at what sizes.

edited to add: I understand that a katana is elliptical and a velocity is cross braced, so they're different sub classes, but in terms of how these different designs need to be loaded and what happens under different loadings is not something I understand enough to be able to articulate in a meaningful way.

no offense intended to my anvil shaped brothers, i don't deny your right to fly the canopy you want at less than the speed of sound Cool


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jun 6, 2013, 9:17 AM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 6, 2013, 10:49 AM
Post #12 of 18 (3233 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

I flew KA 170 and XF 169's. Since my rig at the time will only go down to 170.

They fly exactly like how KA or XF should fly, without big recovery arc.


Ron

Jun 6, 2013, 12:26 PM
Post #13 of 18 (3189 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That a katana 170 is appropriate but a velo 170 isn't even manufactured validates that my basic understanding was in the ballpark, I just don't know enough about the individual platforms to know which would cut off at what sizes.

IIRC, they had some issues with larger than 120 Xbraced canopies opening hard. It was one of the big issues Xbraced canopies had when they first came out in ZP. I had an 88 and it would whack the shit out of me 3/10 times and the other 7 were brisk. PD had the same issue with the Excaliber which was the first Xbraced canopy made of F111. When they tried to make them out of ZP, they about killed people on opening.

PD spent a bunch of time trying to get the openings right...Making a new size is not as simple as just putting the plan on a photocopier and making it bigger. And frankly the Velo in larger sizes does not have the market to justify the expense at all the R&D.

Then add in cost. A Xbraced canopy has almost twice the fabric of a conventional canopy. It just costs more to make.

So when you add in:
1. Difficult to get to open nicely in large sizes
2. Lack of demand
3. Cost

It is not too difficult to understand why they didn't spend mush time on the idea.


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Jun 11, 2013, 9:41 PM
Post #14 of 18 (2860 views)
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Re: [Ron] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I asked Brian Germain why they don't make crossbrace canopies for fat guys like me, he said you can't just scale up the size of the canopy 10%, it won't fly like the same canopy. The thickness of the canopy has to change a different percentage than the square footage, and he hadn't figured it out yet.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jun 28, 2013, 1:56 PM
Post #15 of 18 (2398 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a big guy and fly a Katana 170 loading it at 1.65 . I have tried and been owner of many parachutes and I can say that my Katana is the best parachute ever I have jumped. I just had it relined after almost 500 jumps on it. It is a fun canopy, light toggle pressure, extremely strong flare, opens softly and behave well. But if you don't respect it like for instance by making a fast 180 degrees turn at 500 feet, you are dead or almost. Otherwise, it is very docile. I wanted to get that parachute for more penetration into the wind, more fun and a flare like nothing else. One day with a very mild breeze, I even tried the Katana 150. I was a bit nervous for landing it but at my great surprise it gave me one of the softest landing ever. As a big guy with experience I never gave up about using modern equipment with performance. I participated last year on the Canadian FS record of big formations with a successful 102 way. I was on the 6 way base and two guys in there were heavier than me. One of them had a Katana 150. To complete this answer, I drive also a sport car (roadster) which provides with a fairly good performance. As you can see, skydiving is not only for skinny 130 pounds people.Wink


(This post was edited by erdnarob on Jun 28, 2013, 2:00 PM)


jumpwally  (D License)

Jul 1, 2013, 10:56 AM
Post #16 of 18 (1911 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

For the same reason they now make a 4 door version of a 911 variant,,,,


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 1, 2013, 11:02 AM
Post #17 of 18 (1897 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

...so you can bring your wife and kids along for the ride?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 1, 2013, 1:09 PM
Post #18 of 18 (1784 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Why are high performance wings available in "large" sizes? [In reply to] Can't Post

jumpwally wrote:
For the same reason they now make a 4 door version of a 911 variant,,,,

To make more money from the yuppies who now have 2 kids? Sly



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