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AFF hand signals

 


andy2

Apr 16, 2003, 8:08 AM
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AFF hand signals Can't Post

Is there a web page that lists these hand signals, i.e. legs out, legs in, COA, good arch, bad arch, etc, cause I can't find one. I feel like a dumbass for not being able to remember the signals perfectly when my instructor quizzes me before jumps. Thanks for any help you provideSmile


Clownburner  (B 26842)

Apr 16, 2003, 8:35 AM
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Re: [andy2] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't feel bad, we've all been there at one time or another.

USPA to the rescue!


riddler  (D 10234)

Apr 16, 2003, 8:54 AM
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Thnaks for the link. Why does the SIM have a signal for both Arch and Pelvis down? I only learned the Pelvic Thrust (thumb down). Doesn't make sense to have two? Plus the flat arch signal seems like it would be hard to use and easy to misinterpret.


Clownburner  (B 26842)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:02 AM
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Re: [riddler] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I think different DZ's sometimes use slight variations; so they show a few different ones. They're not all equally clear. I know during my AFF they used slightly different ones for some of the symbols - 'arch' (they used the thumb down), 'practice touches' and 'check arms' were all different.

Personally, I don't like the pull signal. It's hard-wired to mean 'look over there' in most people, and the first time I got it (AFF1), that's exactly what I did: I looked where the AFF/I was pointing - at the reserve side AFF/I. It took about .5 sec for me to realize what he meant (when the other AFF/I pointed back at the first one) and as I reached for my pilot chute, I felt him grab my wrist and start pushing it back there. Crazy

But who am I to question the wisdom of those better at skydiving than I? Tongue


andy2

Apr 16, 2003, 9:05 AM
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks clownburner, that was exactly what I was looking for!Cool


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:18 AM
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Hand signal standardization from one DZ to the next has been an on-going problem from the start of the AFF program.
There was supposed to be an AFF standardization meeting during the recent PIA Symposium, but I have not heard any results.

One of the biggest problems is finding signals that are easy for students from a variety of cultures to grasp. For example, Clownburner is correct in stating that most people are hardwired to perceive a pointing finger as meaning "look over there."

A better example would be an instructor sticking out his tongue out at a student. Most students respond by sticking out their tongues, giggling and relaxing, which is what we wanted them to do all along: "relax."

In the Canadian PFF program we use different signals again. For example, when an instructor taps his own head, the student is supposed to "think" about the skydive and get on with the next maneuver.

We also use a lot of contact signals:
shake to wake up
tap altimeter to encourage student to look at altimeter
slap, pinch or bite buttocks to encourage arching
grab right wrist to remind student to pull, etc.


riddler  (D 10234)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:22 AM
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But who am I to question the wisdom of those better at skydiving than I?

I think their wisdom exceeds all of ours Tongue The single finger for "pull" comes from "Pull-My-Finger", which is the most obvious use of that signal if you had a dirty old man for a grandfather Cool Otherwise, it's not too obvious - you just have to commit it to memory I guess.

But that also means we have to be careful with other signals. I was warned in the coaching class not to point to the altimeter to tell a student to check altitude, as this could lead to a misinterpretation to pull. Can't point at anything else either. Unimpressed


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:23 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
slap, pinch or bite buttocks to encourage arching

Why can I see every AFF/I in California going to jail because of this?Wink


Cajones  (D License)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:30 AM
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

There is still some variation from DZ-to-DZ in this area. I think it has become less of an issue, though. I can remember heated discussions in years past about the "pointing" signal. My resolution is, in practice, to change the signal from a perceived "pointing" to the hand signal for "one." No matter if it's "pointing" up, down, sideways, or whatever - it means "one."

The number "one" refers to the first priority of the student jump - to save their life. This' done by deploying a parachute, of course. The "one" principle is reinforced during training by giving pull signals of multiple orientations and from multiple angles, by never pointing at anything with a single finger (got that from Rick Horn) - very difficult habit to break, and throwing in the occasional "Pimsleur" method of expecting a pull sequence anytime I point at a student.

As far as:
Quote:
But who am I to question the wisdom of those better at skydiving than I?

Keep asking questions, and adding in your $.02 - you might learn something, and so might the rest of us - no matter how many jumps we have.


DYEVOUT  (Student)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:38 AM
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Re: [riddler] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why does the SIM have a signal for both Arch and Pelvis down?

I had a tendency to arch more through the chest than the pelvis in AFF. Maybe the hand signal was for me.


hookitt  (D License)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:47 AM
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Re: [rigging65] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
slap, pinch or bite buttocks to encourage arching

Why can I see every AFF/I in California going to jail because of this?Wink

I'll see ya there, we can meet for lunch.


markbaur  (D 6108)

Apr 16, 2003, 10:10 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was supposed to be an AFF standardization meeting during the recent PIA Symposium, but I have not heard any results.

The AFF Standardization Meeting is intended to standardize AFF instructor rating courses, not AFF.

We did talk about standardizing course procedures, but we avoided talking about standardizing course performance standards -- and with the proliferation of course directors there is no longer any way to to make sure the level of difficulty is the same from course to course.

Mark


Clownburner  (B 26842)

Apr 16, 2003, 12:04 PM
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Re: [Cajones] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps the best way to signal this is the middle finger - the universal sign that 'You're F****d - pull now!' Sly


(This post was edited by Clownburner on Apr 16, 2003, 12:20 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 16, 2003, 3:00 PM
Post #14 of 23 (3167 views)
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

>Personally, I don't like the pull signal. It's hard-wired to mean 'look over there' in most people. . .

That's why I usually point at their PC handle, or their altimeter.


DivinDon  (A 43525)

Apr 16, 2003, 3:57 PM
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Re: [billvon] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

My aff1 I had this very thing happen to me.The JM wanted me to pull high since the spot was long,I seen the pull sign but took it that I was supposed to check the other JM ,a second had passed and it registered that I was supposed to pull instead it threw me off because I new we were not at lock-on altitude yet.I don't know if a different signal would change anything but like billvon said it has a tendency to make people look where you are pointing instead of pulling.


wow I really need to check these post before I throw them up on the board sorry for the confusing mispelled post Wink


(This post was edited by DivinDon on Apr 16, 2003, 4:05 PM)


markbaur  (D 6108)

Apr 16, 2003, 3:58 PM
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Re: [Clownburner] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't like the pull signal. It's hard-wired to mean 'look over there'

I agree. We switched last year to using a fist ("grab") to indicate pull, and an open palm ("touch, without grabbing") to indicate practice pull. I can't imagine switching back.

Sometimes we get students who have learned different hand signals, so for a few jumps, the instructors have to adapt. It's not often, though, and after a few jumps, the student doesn't need those hand signals any more.

I agree with what one of the other posters said about the tongue-out signal. It's kind of hard-wired for "relax, have fun," and is more effective than the conventional limp hand relax signal. I suppose as more of us wear full-face helmets, the tongue-out signal will disappear.

Mark


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 16, 2003, 4:26 PM
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Re: [markbaur] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the 'fist' for the pull signal. I first ran into it at LP last year.

Hook


sducoach  (D License)

Apr 16, 2003, 9:17 PM
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Re: [Cajones] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileCajones,
This is the best explanation I've run across. I'm going to steal it!!
It seems that of all the disciplines, AFF has the most standardized signals. They are displayed in the SIM and are used in all AFFCC's. If we teach the signals from the start why is there such a problem?


markbaur  (D 6108)

Apr 17, 2003, 5:59 AM
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Re: [Cajones] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My resolution is, in practice, to change the signal from a perceived "pointing" to the hand signal for "one." No matter if it's "pointing" up, down, sideways, or whatever - it means "one." ... The number "one" refers to the first priority of the student jump - to save their life.

I can see this working for "pull," but I also can it interfering with the two-fingers signal. The student has to decode: does it mean "do the second priority," or does it mean "extend legs?"

Mark


sducoach  (D License)

Apr 17, 2003, 6:54 PM
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Re: [markbaur] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkCome on Mark.
The point, equals pull, equals #1 priority works. Linking these together is a great Idea and does not create two separate commands into one signal. How can legs out equal pull at the proper altitude unless you teach it?
The basic AFF hand signals work if you teach them. If there is a better idea, I'll repeat myself, send it into Safety & Training, let them evaluate it and if it's better we all be using it.

Blues,
J.E.


markbaur  (D 6108)

Apr 18, 2003, 5:42 AM
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Re: [sducoach] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking about DZs that use 3-fingers as the practice-pull prompt. There you have 1-finger is "first priority" (a number association), 3-fingers is "do 3 practice pulls" (another number association). But 2-fingers is not associated with numbers, hence the interference. Decoding the signal becomes a two-step process: first, is this a number signal or an analogue signal, and second, what does the signal mean.

The interference is not as great if you use the conventional PRCP signal, leaving the student to decide just "Is he pointing, or is it time to pull?", or "Is this legs out, or what the heck is action #2?"

Mark


kizza  (Student)

Apr 18, 2003, 4:15 PM
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Re: [markbaur] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure if this is standard for all Australian DZ's, but atleast at my DZ my instructors use a clenched fist infront of the student's face to indicate "pull ripcord now". Much more sensible IMO.


poohbeer  (Student)

Apr 20, 2003, 3:16 AM
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Re: [billvon] AFF hand signals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's why I usually point at their PC handle, or their altimeter.

And pointing to the altimeter doesn't confuse them as to thinking check altitude? It could be that have to pull high so...



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