Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
two out main and reserve entanglment

 

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airbornesoon

May 21, 2013, 9:47 AM
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two out main and reserve entanglment Can't Post

almost got a trip to the ER or worse for sure. The static line system they use is Velcro and attaches to the pilot chute that gets packed ontop of the dbag. The static line has a cable that closes the container. Wellllll the static line pulled and from what we seen on the video the bag stayed closed somewhat, as you could see the netting from the PC still sitting on top of the container. Emerg procedures are when nothing's there you pull reserve right away. Well when I pulled my reserve it dislodged my main and they opened at same time. i am assuming casuse the pilot shute is on the top of the dbag for the main on this configuration, it inflated and from what i guess it went up through the front left riser of my reserve. cause it was wraped around the riser. If anyone youtubes that malfunction it is never good ending and that's what I was thinkin about as I had two parachutes tangled through each other and creating an "x" one chute was facing left. One right and not side by side but tangled and ontop of one another. No steering and coming in like a meteor.

Thank god I'm a good plf-er cause I came in, cross wind no steering and rolled like a champ.

what my question to you more experienced jumpers out there is
"what would you do?"

i have replayed this over and over in my head. My instructor said i did everything properly and remained calm.
i know this is more than just rare for this to happen especially on static line.. but any input is good input

thanks


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2013, 10:37 AM
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

airbornesoon wrote:

My instructor said i did everything properly and remained calm.

Well played.

And you can add yourself to the list of jumpers who avoided injury or death with a good PLF.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

May 21, 2013, 11:24 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, I concur.

You followed procedure and had already done the hard work of drilling your PLF's. And, you're here to tell the story, so it looks like you did everything right. Congrat's.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 21, 2013, 1:45 PM
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Re: [rmarshall234] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You followed procedure ....

What procedure was that?


airbornesoon

May 21, 2013, 2:07 PM
Post #5 of 57 (3590 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

we were taught that if you look up and see nothing to pull reserve. only cut away if something is there. which i did. after i looked up and seen there wasnt anything there i reached back and hit the container twice and knew the DBag was still in there so i pulled reserve...


Krip  (Student)

May 21, 2013, 2:24 PM
Post #6 of 57 (3568 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

popsjumper wrote:
In reply to:
You followed procedure ....

What procedure was that?

Hi pops

You had to ask didn't you.Wink

R


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 21, 2013, 6:07 PM
Post #7 of 57 (3429 views)
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Re: [Krip] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Krip wrote:
popsjumper wrote:
In reply to:
You followed procedure ....

What procedure was that?

Hi pops

You had to ask didn't you.Wink

R

Double, double toil and trouble
LaughLaughLaugh


hedge

May 22, 2013, 3:55 AM
Post #8 of 57 (3214 views)
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

airbornesoon wrote:
we were taught that if you look up and see nothing to pull reserve. only cut away if something is there. which i did. after i looked up and seen there wasnt anything there i reached back and hit the container twice and knew the DBag was still in there so i pulled reserve...

I would strongly suggest you rethink that procedure. We had a nearly fatal incident at our dropzone last year, when a girl (500+ jumps in 3 years) didn't cutaway because there was nothing out (pilot chute in tow). Her reserve opened fine, but when she entered final her main chute decided to open, and immediately formed a down-plane. She didn't have a single chance to react and impacted hard. Lots of broken bones and lucky not to be paralyzed, yet even more lucky to be even alive!!

ALWAYS do the full procedure, cutaway first, no matter if theres anything out or not!!! Once you are under your reserve, you definately don't want your main anymore, so better make sure it's cutaway!

If your dbag stays inside, everything is fine even if you don't cutaway, but if your main decides to come out after the reserve came out you are very close to - or like in your case - in the deep shit!

Once your reserve is out of the container, the whole force distribution of your container changes, and it's very likely that your main comes out by itself.
I've seen that live once, while doing camera. Ripped Pull-Out-Chord, container was still closed, looks like pin still locking the loop on the video, but as soon as the reserve hit linestrech, the pull-out-PC of the main container came out and the main flew down, still locked in the dbag, dragging the fully inflated pilot chute behind it. If the jumper didn't cutaway, he would have had a two out situation. You definately don't want a two out situation.


Again, teaching people it is not needed to cutaway when theres nothing out is potentially dangerous!!!


(This post was edited by hedge on May 22, 2013, 3:58 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 22, 2013, 5:36 AM
Post #9 of 57 (3158 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

hedge wrote:
I would strongly suggest you rethink that procedure. [..]
ALWAYS do the full procedure, cutaway first, no matter if theres anything out or not!!! [..]
Again, teaching people it is not needed to cutaway when theres nothing out is potentially dangerous!!!

I think many people will dispute your certainty on this matter.

Cutting away can kill you. Not cutting away can kill you. We can find examples of both.

If you choose not to cut away, you do need to be ready to cut away after the reserve is fully open, if there's a chance of the main coming out.

I would strongly suggest you rethink your procedures too. Not necessarily change them, just give them a good rethink.

Also think about what might have happened to the original poster when the main opened up through a reserve riser AND he had cut away that main (whether when he pulled the reserve or later). Cutting away at the beginning wouldn't have changed the two canopies opening through each other. He had a situation with two out, canopies and risers intertwined. Consider what the standard procedures are for a two-out with canopies entangled.

Just some food for thought.


sundevil777  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 5:56 AM
Post #10 of 57 (3138 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would strongly suggest you rethink that procedure. We had a nearly fatal incident at our dropzone last year, when a girl (500+ jumps in 3 years) didn't cutaway because there was nothing out (pilot chute in tow). Her reserve opened fine, but when she entered final her main chute decided to open, and immediately formed a down-plane. She didn't have a single chance to react and impacted hard. Lots of broken bones and lucky not to be paralyzed, yet even more lucky to be even alive!!

ALWAYS do the full procedure, cutaway first, no matter if theres anything out or not!!! Once you are under your reserve, you definately don't want your main anymore, so better make sure it's cutaway!

You should realize that a departing main canopy can make things much worse.

I understand having a position on the issue of whether to cutaway or not, but you should realize that the answer is not so obvious as to which is better.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 22, 2013, 6:12 AM
Post #11 of 57 (3122 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You definately don't want a two out situation

Really? In the first jump course, we have and teach a procedure for every type of two-out you could encounter. Most of them have a clear course of action, and I have seen these action performed in real life with positive results.

The one we do not have a clear course of action for is a main/reserve entanglement. The suggestion is to 'keep trying and be ready to PLF'.

In my opinion, your highest chance for a main reserve entanglement will come when you have a main departing past a deploying reserve. Two canopies deploying next to each other is, more-or-less, two closed 'loops' (up one riser, across the canopy, down the other riser). With no loose ends, the loops can exist next to each other, and they have as the many 'successful' two-outs have proven.

So if you pull the cutaway before you dump the reserve, you lose control over the main canopy. As you stated, it may deploy at any time, so you don't have control over that, but if you leave the cutaway handle in place, you do have control over (mostly) what it does once it deploys.

If it does deploy, you have the option to cut it away if and when the need arises and the situation allows, such as when the canopies downplane and are clear of each other. If they fly nicely in a bi-plane, you don't need or want to cutaway, and with the cutaway handle in place, you can make that choice.

If the main should foul the reserve during deployment, you have the choice to pull the cutaway handle OR reel in the main to help the reserve open clean. If you pull the cutaway handle, you lose both of those options, all you can do is sit and watch whatever is going to happen.

Can the main deploy and become a factor in a closed container malfunction scenario? Sure, but until such time, puling the cutaway handle is solving a problem that does not currently exist, may never exist, and removes options from your plate that you might want during the next minute or two.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 7:49 AM
Post #12 of 57 (3053 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, teaching people it is not needed to cutaway when theres nothing out is potentially dangerous!!!

I'd argue that teaching a student to cutaway at terminal is also potentially very dangerous.

I understand what you're saying & why...and that is certainly a procedure a more experienced skydiver might want to consider...but if one has pulled the main and isn't slowing down I think getting something else out & fast is the first priority... especially for a student.

They could be digging for handles until the cypress fires...give them ONE thing to focus on, that has the highest odds of survival. That's MY opinion anyway. Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 22, 2013, 9:06 AM
Post #13 of 57 (3010 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would strongly suggest you rethink that procedure.

Excuse me. I would strongly suggest that you refrain from offering bogus advice to people. You obviously have no clue as to the pros and cons of either method nor why there ARE two approved methods. Sometimes it's better to know what you are talking about as opposed to mindlessly regurgitating what others have put in front of you.


hedge

May 22, 2013, 9:10 AM
Post #14 of 57 (3003 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Good food for thought in here, I like that, thanks guys.

Regarding cutting away with nothing out and the risk of not being able to control the main once it's cutaway. If the main is still in the container, and pops when the reserve packjob leaves the container, there is no need to control a canopy, theres "only" a POD on a pilot-chute coming out. I would consider it very unlikely that a cut away main inside a pod has any chance to inflate (let's consider a standard pod with rubber-stowed lines).
Maybe worth to mention, although not safety related, you might have a hard time finding your canopy if it's still in the dbag ... I know two people who lost their canopies that way, including the guy I mentioned earlier with the ripped pullout-chord.

Other than that you guys provided some very good points, will for sure spend some thoughts on them!


airtwardo  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 10:12 AM
Post #15 of 57 (2958 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

hedge wrote:
Good food for thought in here, I like that, thanks guys.

Regarding cutting away with nothing out and the risk of not being able to control the main once it's cutaway. If the main is still in the container, and pops when the reserve packjob leaves the container, there is no need to control a canopy, theres "only" a POD on a pilot-chute coming out. I would consider it very unlikely that a cut away main inside a pod has any chance to inflate (let's consider a standard pod with rubber-stowed lines).
Maybe worth to mention, although not safety related, you might have a hard time finding your canopy if it's still in the dbag ... I know two people who lost their canopies that way, including the guy I mentioned earlier with the ripped pullout-chord.

Other than that you guys provided some very good points, will for sure spend some thoughts on them!


If the main comes out while under the reserve...Odds are it'll open, make no mistake about that.

But...it will take a little time to do so, one can elect to cut it away at that point providing it's not interfering with the reserve & doing so won't end up possibly causing a choke off or entanglement.

If you're not quick and right - you then are facing a bi-plane or a down plane...your best option is to do everything possible to keep yourself from ever getting in that position in the 1st place.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on May 22, 2013, 1:31 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 12:04 PM
Post #16 of 57 (2889 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
there is no need to control a canopy, theres "only" a POD on a pilot-chute coming out. I would consider it very unlikely that a cut away main inside a pod has any chance to inflate (let's consider a standard pod with rubber-stowed lines).

Wrong again, please stop thinking that you know so much.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 22, 2013, 2:45 PM
Post #17 of 57 (2827 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the main is still in the container, and pops when the reserve packjob leaves the container, there is no need to control a canopy, theres "only" a POD on a pilot-chute coming out. I would consider it very unlikely that a cut away main inside a pod has any chance to inflate (let's consider a standard pod with rubber-stowed lines).

Not quite. Depending on your rig, your riser covers will be closed and will provide tension on the lines to allow them to unstow and for the canopy to come out of the bag. Until there is a load placed on the risers to flip the rings through, the main will not separate from the harness.

I have filmed many, many student deployments, and have seen riser covers hold tight until the canopy gets to line stretch and pulls the jumper upright. I have also seen experienced jumpers have riser cover hang-ups where the covers don't open even after deployment, and the jumper has to reach up and manually open them so they can hang square under the canopy.

In any case, it's the free ends of the risers that are your concern when you send a cutaway main past an open or deploying reserve. It one of them catches on any part of the reserve, you are going to have serious problems. Even if the canopy has not come out of the bag, it will after being dragged around by the reserve for a bit, and then things will get really bad.

There's just no case for cutting away first. It's an option that you don't need to exercise, and a level of control over the main that you don't need (or want) to give up at that point.


hedge

May 22, 2013, 4:07 PM
Post #18 of 57 (2775 views)
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Re: [davelepka] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
In reply to:
there is no need to control a canopy, theres "only" a POD on a pilot-chute coming out. I would consider it very unlikely that a cut away main inside a pod has any chance to inflate (let's consider a standard pod with rubber-stowed lines).

Wrong again, please stop thinking that you know so much.

I agree on the second part of your post, this kind of attitude keeps me learning. If I thought I knew "so much", I wouldn't strive to learn more. Guess why my post count is so low, although I've been reading the forums for 3 years.

Regarding the first two words. I found your first post way more constructive. Ian Drennan posted a nice sticky in the swooping forum that is worth a read.
I am posting here because I have gained a fair bit of experience in that matter through last years incident at our dropzone, and I think It's worth sharing that experience. A good discussion can only enhance that experience, don't you think so? You're not making it a good discussion with that little sentence up there.

davelepka wrote:
Quote:
If the main is still in the container, and pops when the reserve packjob leaves the container, there is no need to control a canopy, theres "only" a POD on a pilot-chute coming out. I would consider it very unlikely that a cut away main inside a pod has any chance to inflate (let's consider a standard pod with rubber-stowed lines).

Not quite. Depending on your rig, your riser covers will be closed and will provide tension on the lines to allow them to unstow and for the canopy to come out of the bag. Until there is a load placed on the risers to flip the rings through, the main will not separate from the harness.

I have filmed many, many student deployments, and have seen riser covers hold tight until the canopy gets to line stretch and pulls the jumper upright. I have also seen experienced jumpers have riser cover hang-ups where the covers don't open even after deployment, and the jumper has to reach up and manually open them so they can hang square under the canopy.

Not that I'm claiming I know better with my low jump-count. I said it already, I have a friend that can't jump anymore because she didn't pull her cutawayhandle - her main inflated at 200ft and immediately went into a downplane. She had no chance to do anything. Thats why our whole dropzone spent a lot of time investigating and working through the incident.

I wouldn't even question what you are saying. But at normal freefall speed the force distribution on the risers and flaps is a lot different, than when the reserve is already open. If the reserve is open, the pilot chute will be dragged backwards instead of backwards, at much less force, which will let the risers easily slip out of the flaps. We had two cases of nothing out cutaways last year (i've witnessed one of them first hand upclose doing video). In both cases the riser-flaps didn't pull the canopy out, and it went down on the pilot chute.


I totally agree that the situation might not be that easy, and you should always have a couple of plan Bs in your pocket, no matter what your plan A is, just to be ready to adjust if the situation demands it.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 22, 2013, 4:36 PM
Post #19 of 57 (2749 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you should always have a couple of plan Bs in your pocket, no matter what your plan A is, just to be ready to adjust if the situation demands it.

Ok, let's say you pull your cutaway handle first, then reserve, what exactly would your 'plan B' consist of?

I was mentioned up thread, if you don't pull your cutaway handle first, be ready to pull it later. If you get under your reserve with no problem, and you feel the main drop out of the container at a later time, it would be a very good idea to pull the cutaway before it has a chance to inflate, thus avoiding the possibility of an entanglement or a downplane.

During any skydive, it's not over until you are on the ground and safely in the hanger. Especially when your rig is in a 'non standard' configuration, such as under your reserve with your main still packed. I be on 'high alert' for any change in my situation, and ready to react.

I was involved in a CReW wrap years ago, where a canopy I was docked on collapsed around me and the jumper cutaway (as he should have given the scenario). My canopy was still inflated, so I did my best to dig my way out of the other canopy enough that I could fly my own canopy, and tried my best to contain the other canopy between my legs. I was vey aware that it could get out and inflate at any time, and make a real problem for me. I was on 'high alert' all the way to the ground, paying more attention to the canopy between my legs than the one above me.


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 7:56 PM
Post #20 of 57 (2696 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

When you're at terminal, things have gone to shit, and the ants are starting to look like people, Priority#1 is ending the skydive. A 2-out, bad as that can get, is an aerodynamic decelerator that ends the freefall; and then you can deal with whatever you've got at that point. When you cut away in freefall (and a pc in tow is still freefall) you're burning time and altitude pulling the one handle which, by itself, will do absolutely nothing to save your life.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on May 22, 2013, 7:59 PM)


Ron

May 22, 2013, 8:53 PM
Post #21 of 57 (2671 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I said it already, I have a friend that can't jump anymore because she didn't pull her cutawayhandle - her main inflated at 200ft and immediately went into a downplane. She had no chance to do anything. Thats why our whole dropzone spent a lot of time investigating and working through the incident.

There is no 100% right answer when dealing with a PC in tow malfunction. People have lived, and people have died using both methods. Frankly, it is the only MAL that ever concerns me.... You can do "A" and die, you can do "B" and die.

For ME I have decided that stopping the jump is so much more important than cutting away a canopy that has not yet left the container. Plus, once I pull the reserve, I can still chop if I feel the need. If I chop first, then I have no backup plan.

This is just MY choice and as you can see in other threads... My choices do not always sit well with other people.

There is no right answer in this situation..... Just be careful giving definitive advice when in gray areas like this.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

May 23, 2013, 5:36 AM
Post #22 of 57 (2541 views)
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Re: two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

>There's just no case for cutting away first

Except for the case of the student who is not quite dialed in. For example, they have 10-15 even 25 jumps. Now, they learned the difference between a PCIT and a Horseshoe and can usually demonstrate the proper EP's for each on the ground.

But, take that same student in a highly induced adrenaline state; 2500' and they've pulled. ALL they know is there is no parachute. What is their response going to be? How many believe they are really going to burn altitude trying to assess, "Which mal am I under?"

IMO doing the full proper EPs whether its a PCIT or Horseshoe will result in less assessment time and more action towards getting the reserve over your head.

The floor is yours, Gentlemen.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on May 23, 2013, 5:38 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 23, 2013, 5:48 AM
Post #23 of 57 (2527 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Except for the case of the student who is not quite dialed in.

I get this line of thinking, one procedure means less decisions to make for the student. Problem? Cutaway/pull reserve, done.

This is why this issue is an 'issue'. The same realities of cutting away before pulling the reserve handle exist for a student. They are still cutting away a canopy that has not left the container, and risking it leaving at a time where it could do more harm than if it was still attached to the harness.

While you do have a point about keeping it simple for the student, the concept of 'no' canopy meaning no cutaway is pretty simple too. If you're still in freefall, pull the reserve. It's a fairly simple conclusion to come to, and I can't imagine it would take too much more time than actually pulling the cutaway.

Scenario 1 -

1. Attempt deployment
2. Count, check canopy.
3. No canopy
4. Pull cutaway
5. Pull reserve

Scenario 2

1. Attempt deployment
2. Count, check canopy
3. No canopy
4. Choose full or partial EPs
5. Pull reserve

This is why this issue is always good for a lengthy debate, there are good arguments going both ways. Part of it is that both sides have their upsides, the other part is that there are so many 'unknowns' as to the exact nature of the problem.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 23, 2013, 9:56 AM
Post #24 of 57 (2417 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree on the second part of your post, this kind of attitude keeps me learning. If I thought I knew "so much", I wouldn't strive to learn more.
I don't see much learning going on. I see a blind insistence that your one procedure is the proper procedure.

In reply to:
I am posting here because I have gained a fair bit of experience in that matter through last years incident at our dropzone,
Sorry, your definition of "experience" is quite different than mine, and I'd venture to presume, most others as well.


In reply to:
Not that I'm claiming I know better with my low jump-count. I said it already, I have a friend that can't jump anymore because she didn't pull her cutawayhandle - her main inflated at 200ft and immediately went into a downplane. She had no chance to do anything.
You mistakenly assume that the proper time for her to cutaway the main was prior to reserve deployment. You mistakenly assume that a downplane at 200ft is too late to cutaway under a functional reserve.


In reply to:
I wouldn't even question what you are saying. But...

This is why I posted about the learning.


Now for another learning o0pportunity:

Question and food for thought - should your main, for whatever reason, get entangled with your reserve and chokes it off, what is YOUR plan B...what are YOU going to do?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 23, 2013, 9:57 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

May 23, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #25 of 57 (2407 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Question and food for thought - should your main, for whatever reason, get entangled with your reserve and chokes it off, what is YOUR plan B...what are YOU going to do?

Click my heels together 3 times while saying 'theres no place like home'...It's in the manual, page 46!


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