Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Guess this mal...

 

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sebinoslo  (B 96611)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #1 of 26 (3777 views)
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Guess this mal... Can't Post

Clue #1: Canopy is a Pilot 140.
Clue #2: No one I talked to in Eloy (even the Aerodyne rep) had encountered / heard of it before.

I'll post the cause and how to prevent it from happening in 1 or 2 days Smile but i'm sure someone can figure it out based on the picture.

This was my first mal and was under reserve by 2000 ft so nothing too dramatic on that end Smile


(This post was edited by sebinoslo on Apr 29, 2013, 2:11 PM)
Attachments: Malfunction#1.jpg (142 KB)


Bertt  (D 99999)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:12 PM
Post #2 of 26 (3738 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm imagining the picture, but still having a hard time figuring it out.


NeonLights  (D License)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:16 PM
Post #3 of 26 (3728 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like the slider is collapsed on one side.. ?


jzzsxm  (B License)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:16 PM
Post #4 of 26 (3724 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Suspension line knotted around the line you use to collapse your slider and collapsed half of it?


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:17 PM
Post #5 of 26 (3722 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like the slider is collapsed and the tab is hung up in the lines. Not 100% sure how it would get there.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 29, 2013, 2:17 PM
Post #6 of 26 (3721 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Kill line tab was caught in the canopy cascade.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 29, 2013, 2:26 PM
Post #7 of 26 (3697 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Kill line tab was caught in the canopy cascade.

Yep. Kill line/suspension line entanglement.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:28 PM
Post #8 of 26 (3684 views)
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Re: [billvon] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

So then the question is did this happen during packing (not uncollapsing the slider the whole way?) or some odd opening sequence?


Skyzilla

Apr 29, 2013, 2:39 PM
Post #9 of 26 (3661 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

During packing, you should ensure that the slider collapse pull cord tab is sucked back inside the little pocket on the back edge of the slider. Don't leave it hanging out loose and exposed.


sebinoslo  (B 96611)

Apr 29, 2013, 2:44 PM
Post #10 of 26 (3655 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct.

In other words: the slider would never have come down.

The tabs are actually tricky to really tuck in and prevent them from sliding even slightly out. you can see the left one is out by half an inch or so. But you cannot tuck them 100% in because then you cannot collapse your slide if there is nothing to pull the kill lines.
After this, i noticed that i have to really pull the slider forward when packing to make sure no lines get in contact with the tabs, especially when lifting the tail. Almost so much forward that the slider was no longer symmetric enough for my taste.

To be sure to prevent this mal from happening again, i will change the tabs and get a straight kill line coming about 0.5 / 1 inch out of the slider (as seen on many sliders from other brands than aerodyne). This modification should really put the entanglement risk down to almost zero.

Maybe someone has a trick up their sleeves to prevent this from ever happening even with tabs on?


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Apr 29, 2013, 3:14 PM
Post #11 of 26 (3627 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

That was the same malfunction - stuck slider because of the slider tab - that I had for my first cutaway back in 1994!!! Yes I'm old :) I didn't pack it so I'm not sure how mine happened.,..


jurgencamps  (D License)

Apr 30, 2013, 3:13 AM
Post #12 of 26 (3377 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Maybe someone has a trick up their sleeves to prevent this from ever happening even with tabs on?
Just fold the side with the tabs on to the inside of the slider. This way the tabs are not exposed to the lines of the canopy. I will try not to forget to post a picture tomorrow.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 30, 2013, 3:42 PM
Post #13 of 26 (3155 views)
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Re: [Skyzilla] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty good thinking for a newbie. Let's give it a .... shot.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

May 1, 2013, 1:15 PM
Post #14 of 26 (2932 views)
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Re: [billvon] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Kill line tab was caught in the canopy cascade.

Yep. Kill line/suspension line entanglement.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I've never seen one of those malfunctions before. My slider has one kill line in the middle. Seems far enough away from the canopy lines to not ever be a problem, but I guess you never know.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 1, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #15 of 26 (2881 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

>My slider has one kill line in the middle. Seems far enough away from the canopy
> lines to not ever be a problem, but I guess you never know.

My slider has two kill lines and it would be hard to imagine them snagging the suspension lines. But it's also hard to imagine them snagging each other, yet I have landed a few times and spent ten minutes untangling the Gordian knot they created with each other. Strange stuff happens to loose lines.


evan85  (C 41367)

May 1, 2013, 3:20 PM
Post #16 of 26 (2865 views)
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Re: [billvon] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Strange stuff happens to loose lines.

You may or may not be surprised to know that this has been mathematically proved. Sly

Raymer, Dorian M. et al., "Spontaneous knotting of an agitated string". http://www.pnas.org/...nt/104/42/16432.full


(This post was edited by evan85 on May 1, 2013, 3:33 PM)


GalFisk  (D 23239)

May 2, 2013, 2:34 AM
Post #17 of 26 (2750 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Maybe someone has a trick up their sleeves to prevent this from ever happening even with tabs on?
Just fold the side with the tabs on to the inside of the slider. This way the tabs are not exposed to the lines of the canopy. I will try not to forget to post a picture tomorrow.
Thanks for the tip. I've never experienced this mal, and my slider tabs only stick out a few millimeters when fully stowed, but I will start doing this. Any little trick that makes the improbable even less probable is good in my book.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 2, 2013, 6:26 AM
Post #18 of 26 (2681 views)
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Re: [billvon] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>My slider has one kill line in the middle. Seems far enough away from the canopy
> lines to not ever be a problem, but I guess you never know.

My slider has two kill lines and it would be hard to imagine them snagging the suspension lines. But it's also hard to imagine them snagging each other, yet I have landed a few times and spent ten minutes untangling the Gordian knot they created with each other. Strange stuff happens to loose lines.

I think part of it is lazy packing (not fully pulling the kill line back into the slider, leaving an inch or two exposed) and part gear (think of the tabs that PD used to use vs the straight line that they use now).

I actually just pointed out this possibility to a jumper at my dz as she was packing, she's got a D and TI rating, but had never thought of it and never bothered pulling the kill line all the way back into the channel to hide the tabs.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

May 2, 2013, 8:48 AM
Post #19 of 26 (2616 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so I'm clear on this....the slider was properly uncollapsed for the pack job and on opening the right side kill line snagged in the cascades and self-collapsed that side of the slider causing a spin?


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 2, 2013, 12:02 PM
Post #20 of 26 (2505 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like the canopy is fully open.


uberchris  (A License)

May 2, 2013, 12:36 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2487 views)
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Re: [BigMark] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

riggers/gear loving people,
wonder if anyone has ever:

a. attached a snap button the the tab and to the slider itself to keep the tabs snapped in place and ensure the slider is NOT collapsed during packing/deployment (not sure if adding metal to this portion of your canopy would be good or extremely bad)

b. sewed a strip of velcro to each tab and onto the slider.

i wonder if either of the above would cause unneccesary wear on the slider fabric or anywhere else............


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 2, 2013, 3:42 PM
Post #22 of 26 (2424 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

>never bothered pulling the kill line all the way back into the channel to hide the tabs.

Wow! I can't believe people wouldn't take the few extra seconds to fully set the kill line and stow the tabs back into the channels.
Doesn't the saying go "If it can happen,it will happen"?
So these unseated kill lines hanging out are entangling in the suspesion lines,imagine that.
Even if every fold is right,and every line is properly placed and stowed,and everything else that go's into a pack job is right,it can still go bad,right?
What if the slider ends up being collapsed as you are packing the canopy because you end up unkowingly pulling out more of the kill line you left hanging out?
People have had brutal experiences from collapsed sliders on deployment right?
Why are people so complacent about this very simple thing that takes only seconds to do?
Hell,I do it after I land,along with stowing my toggles before I walk in from the landing area.


(This post was edited by toolbox on May 2, 2013, 4:14 PM)


sebinoslo  (B 96611)

May 3, 2013, 3:51 AM
Post #23 of 26 (2291 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

100% correct.

If a line can make a half loop around the tab, the tension on opening will close that loop tight around the tab, collapsing the slider and worse yet: hold on tight to the kill line tab with no chance for the slider to come down.


sebinoslo  (B 96611)

May 3, 2013, 3:58 AM
Post #24 of 26 (2286 views)
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Re: [BigMark] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Looks like the canopy is fully open.

it may look that way but the slider is up high the whole time and never comes down causing a spin, causing a cutaway.

if you compare the lines from the left back riser (all nice and straight) with the ones from the right back riser (quite some slack in them), you can see that the canopy is not fully open.

you can also spot the kill line going from the right side of the slider onto the cascade lines.

as a final note: you can see the normal left tab hanging out about 1/2" so it didn't take much to create a snag hazard


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

May 3, 2013, 6:55 AM
Post #25 of 26 (2240 views)
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Re: [sebinoslo] Guess this mal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting.

Very nice post.


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