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Landing direction, revisited.

 

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fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Landing direction, revisited. Can't Post

I've posted before to promote large landing indicators at DZ's. My position was based on a marked improvement after my DZ installed a large arrow to indicate landing direction. It moved with the wind, and on days with a nice steady wind was the go to authority on which direction to land. Low wind, and squirrely wind days, not so much, but it seemed most jumpers followed the arrow, and chaos was small.

I moved near Spaceland, which has a tetrahedron, and found good landing conditions there. Most jumpers follow it, even on low wind days. It is there, saying 'land in this direction,' and people do.

So I go back to my old home DZ and find the arrow gone. Somebody hit it.

Landing chaos. This is unacceptable.

S&TA tries, states landing direction on the way up. Wind changes, I land downwind. No complaint.
I then witness this conversation:
Jumper: I'm landing into the wind.
S&TA; No, you need to land the same direction as everybody else.
Jumper: Fuck you, I'll land like I want.

And he did.

IMO, the arrow was a good thing. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:18 PM
Post #2 of 60 (2966 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Land towards your grandfather!
Laugh


Wind vane type arrows are one of my favorites, so long as you can anchor it on low wind days. The problem I have seen is those that "chase the arrow".

I try to use more than one source on wind direction. Trees, wind blades, flags, smoke, etc.
I do generally support an agreed upon direction, at least until it's wrong.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:24 PM
Post #3 of 60 (2954 views)
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Re: [normiss] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do generally support an agreed upon direction, at least until it's wrong.

Then what? At the last possible moment, you choose to land opposite to everybody else? <insert comment here> ha ha.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:41 PM
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Landing away from those with no clue is my typical first thought.

Hey if you guys wanna get hurt smoking em downwind, I'll give you room.

If you're landing and end up with a "last possible moment", you fucked up before getting there. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2013, 1:24 PM
Post #5 of 60 (2882 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>IMO, the arrow was a good thing.

Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 24, 2013, 1:26 PM
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

A tetrahedron that's hard enough to move not to swing around when winds are light and variable works well, too.

Wendy P.


theplummeter  (C License)

Apr 24, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #7 of 60 (2847 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I travel a lot for work, and try to jump in as many different places as possible.

Many smaller Cessna dropzones don't care where you land or how you set up, as long as you don't hit anyone else.

I love Eloy, planning that if the first jumper down takes it downwind then I have to keeps me on my toes and reinforces good canopy choices knowing that crosswind and downwind are likely on most jumps.

Mile Hi is excellent in that you always set up to land into the wind, which is helpful at a dropzone that high and with that much wind.

Either way, as long as the jumpers listen to and follow the rules it works. The real problem is when one person doesn't want to deal with the rules, and screws it up for everyone.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:02 PM
Post #8 of 60 (2777 views)
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Re: [normiss] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Landing away from those with no clue is my typical first thought.

>>> No, this is about landing in a different direction than most of the load, no matter what your motivation.

Hey if you guys wanna get hurt smoking em downwind, I'll give you room.

No, this is about light and variable winds. Nobody is smoking them downwind, and in fact the only ones going counter to the plan are a few rebels that land opposite to everyone else. Is it because they can't take an easy downwind landing? I don't know.

If you're landing and end up with a "last possible moment", you fucked up before getting there. Wink

Yep, that's why I like big arrows, easily seen from real high up.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:10 PM
Post #9 of 60 (2763 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've posted before to promote large landing indicators at DZ's. My position was based on a marked improvement after my DZ installed a large arrow to indicate landing direction. It moved with the wind, and on days with a nice steady wind was the go to authority on which direction to land. Low wind, and squirrely wind days, not so much, but it seemed most jumpers followed the arrow, and chaos was small.

I moved near Spaceland, which has a tetrahedron, and found good landing conditions there. Most jumpers follow it, even on low wind days. It is there, saying 'land in this direction,' and people do.

So I go back to my old home DZ and find the arrow gone. Somebody hit it.

Landing chaos. This is unacceptable.

S&TA tries, states landing direction on the way up. Wind changes, I land downwind. No complaint.
I then witness this conversation:
Jumper: I'm landing into the wind.
S&TA; No, you need to land the same direction as everybody else.
Jumper: Fuck you, I'll land like I want.

And he did.

IMO, the arrow was a good thing. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

As a fellow S&TA I'll continue the appropriate conversation for you....

S&TA: You're grounded, pack your shit and get off the DZ. BTW your name has been forwarded to the local DZ's and the USPA via the Regional director.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:14 PM
Post #10 of 60 (2758 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>IMO, the arrow was a good thing.

Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes.

Yes! When the wind is steady there is no need to worry about it, but when it's light and variable, having somebody standing there is a good way to reinforce the landing direction. This person has made the call, and can also watch for any violators.
Here is what I want to avoid:
People landing in the same area going different directions.
I think this is not the way to go.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #11 of 60 (2750 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a fellow S&TA I'll continue the appropriate conversation for you....

S&TA: You're grounded, pack your shit and get off the DZ. BTW your name has been forwarded to the local DZ's and the USPA via the Regional director.

This works too, and I support this approach.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:20 PM
Post #12 of 60 (2742 views)
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Re: [normiss] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do generally support an agreed upon direction, at least until it's wrong.

Define "wrong".

"Hey if you guys wanna get hurt smoking em downwind, I'll give you room."

Is that it? Really? You choose chaos over downwind?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 24, 2013, 3:22 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:22 PM
Post #13 of 60 (2735 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are times that I have not wanted to go along with the established direction. Landing a long way out and doing all I can to be sure I'm alone is reasonable, I think.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:24 PM
Post #14 of 60 (2728 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>IMO, the arrow was a good thing.

Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes.
Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.
Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2013, 3:25 PM
Post #15 of 60 (2726 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.

Uh . . . no.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:29 PM
Post #16 of 60 (2720 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.

Uh . . . no.

You have some other explanation for what you said?

"Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes. "

If you meant between loads, you need to be more specific.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 24, 2013, 3:30 PM)


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:31 PM
Post #17 of 60 (2715 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are times that I have not wanted to go along with the established direction. Landing a long way out and doing all I can to be sure I'm alone is reasonable, I think.

Absolutely, and the proper course if you don't agree with the landing direction in the main landing area.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:37 PM
Post #18 of 60 (2705 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are times that I have not wanted to go along with the established direction. Landing a long way out and doing all I can to be sure I'm alone is reasonable, I think.

Absolutely, and the proper course if you don't agree with the landing direction in the main landing area.

+1


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2013, 3:38 PM
Post #19 of 60 (2704 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>"Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move
>the arrow when the wind changes. "
>If you meant between loads, you need to be more specific.

Of course between loads.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:39 PM
Post #20 of 60 (2703 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.

Uh . . . no.

You have some other explanation for what you said?

"Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes. "

If you meant between loads, you need to be more specific.

I will stand up for between loads. If this is done, almost all questions are eliminated about which way to land.
I can see whole days where this won't need to be done, ie: when the wind is steady from one direction.

So once in a while, somebody has to go out there and point the way down for the load. Before the first guy gets down, a direction is chosen and the arrow is pointed. The person holds it till the last one is down, and incidentally, observes every landing they can see. Anyone violating any other jumper's safety is noted and talked to.
That's my idea.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:49 PM
Post #21 of 60 (2680 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've posted before to promote large landing indicators at DZ's. My position was based on a marked improvement after my DZ installed a large arrow to indicate landing direction. It moved with the wind, and on days with a nice steady wind was the go to authority on which direction to land. Low wind, and squirrely wind days, not so much, but it seemed most jumpers followed the arrow, and chaos was small.

I moved near Spaceland, which has a tetrahedron, and found good landing conditions there. Most jumpers follow it, even on low wind days. It is there, saying 'land in this direction,' and people do.

So I go back to my old home DZ and find the arrow gone. Somebody hit it.

Landing chaos. This is unacceptable.

S&TA tries, states landing direction on the way up. Wind changes, I land downwind. No complaint.
I then witness this conversation:
Jumper: I'm landing into the wind.
S&TA; No, you need to land the same direction as everybody else.
Jumper: Fuck you, I'll land like I want.

And he did.

IMO, the arrow was a good thing. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

As a fellow S&TA I'll continue the appropriate conversation for you....

S&TA: You're grounded, pack your shit and get off the DZ. BTW your name has been forwarded to the local DZ's and the USPA via the Regional director.


BUT...that tends to merely silence the folks that think that way.
The old better to seek forgiveness than permission' thing.

I think a better tack would be to explain at length the reasoning behind set patterns & the problems created when that's not adhered to.

If someone makes a statement like Fuck you I'll do what I want - they're not getting the big picture.

Once having done that and then they go against the set pattern, escort them form the property. Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:50 PM
Post #22 of 60 (2679 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Of course between loads.

Of course. One point that people seem to be missing is that it's rare that the winds will change to such a significant degree between take-off and landing. The plan you make while boarding should be able to stand the test of time, when that time it all of 20 minutes.

Can winds shift in 20 min? Sure, but the chances are that the winds are lighter, as in light and variable, and if you end up taking a crosswind or downwind landing in that case, so be it. The winds are light, it shouldn't be a problem.

If the atmospheric conditions are unstable to the point that the winds are high enough and can shift enough that it makes a downwinder a genuine 'danger', that's something you as a jumper should be aware of before loading the plane. Those conditions don't just come out of nowhere.

The statistical facts are that canopy collisions cause far more deaths/injuries than cross or downwind landings. Traffic control, that being having a plan in place that all jumpers follow is far more important than landing straight into the wind.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 24, 2013, 4:03 PM
Post #23 of 60 (2659 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

At Skydive City there is a bright yellow arrow in the boarding area. It's about 4X10 feet, lays on the ground and is real heavy. Early in the day a consensus is gathered as to the landing direction by asking real loud "WHICH WAY ARE WE LANDING??!!" The arrow is then positioned to point into the wind as a strong suggestion that this is the way to land. It is adjusted throughout the day and is easily seen during boarding as well as in the air.

It helps a LOT!

jon


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #24 of 60 (2656 views)
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Re: Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

All this landing direction talk seems to ignore the abilities and skills of everyone on the load.

We like to talk about what WE would like to see. The problem is that not everyone has the skills we do.
Students, low-timers with little skill as yet, experienced with little skill as yet and then you have the experienced with the skills that won't obey the rules.

How do you organize all those people to land safely with us if you change the rules in the middle of their canopy flight? You can't. You're gonna have people all over the place adjusting patterns, trying to do what they think is right, and most of them are wrong. You cannot expect the unskilled to be able to float on the fly like that on a daily, full-time basis

Chase the wind/sock? Nope? FMD, nope.
IMO, pre-designated pattern works the best.

So, you're gonna come back with, "what if the winds change?"
- before exit...notify the pilot to tell the jumpers.
- after exit...take what you got.

Now you're gonna say, "But what about downwinders?"
- If you are afraid of downwinders,
* you have never done/practiced them
* you seem to think that downwind is worse than multi-directional landings.


I'll tell ya', the DZ I worked had pre-deginated landing direction. It was set up to be as much into the wind as feasible. AFF students and everyone else got good experience landing cross-wind and in the worst situations, got experience landing downwinders. If the winds were too fast for students to be landing downwind, they didn't jump. They got the experience a little at a time and built skills and confidence that they could handle faster winds when they got out on their own.

I'll put those students up against any of your "chase the sock/wind" people.


"Yeah but what about landing off"
- Sometimes your landing direction is limited when you land off....whatchya gonna do if that direction happens to be downwind and you've never done/practiced them?

One large DZ here in Florida has a "standard left-hand pattern into the wind"
Works well until the winds change and people chase the winds landing in every direction you can imagine...never mind the "rules don't apply to me" guys.

Another has the same...except when the bigways are running. Fortunately, most of the organizers that I have jumped with, so far, recognize the problem with that and call a pre-designated pattern...very few close calls. Those that occur...guess who?

As always, YMMV.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 4:10 PM
Post #25 of 60 (2647 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Adequate, I'll concede...to a point. Same as pre-designated except that the jumpers have no clue until they are under canopy. If they can find it early enough to adjust smoothly without running into somebody.

Jon mentioned Skydive City. Pre-designated...finally, for them. Good stuff.


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