Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude?

 

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tsf

Apr 14, 2013, 1:45 AM
Post #1 of 40 (5289 views)
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Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? Can't Post

I have the recent Zhills incident still in mind, but I'm just wondering why there isn't an AAD manufacturer that allows programmable firing altitude (other than trying to do some sort of offset by turning it on at a different altitude than your DZ)?

The firing altitude adjustment I'm talking about would only allow increasing it for the more conservative/cautious jumpers. I know that there is a cypress "student" mode, but I believe that doesn't apply for terminal malfunctions. I would have thought that this would be an obvious feature as there must be a number of jumpers that religiously avoid pulling low or don't do low hop & pops or high performance canopy maneuvers, so they'd want to set their AAD to fire at, say, 1500-2000 feet to err on the side of caution.

Maybe it's just a dumb question and I shouldn't put too much weight into the recent Zhills incident. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience, so I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is something obvious that I'm just not thinking of...


(This post was edited by tsf on Apr 14, 2013, 1:46 AM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 14, 2013, 2:08 AM
Post #2 of 40 (5204 views)
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Re: [tsf] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

read a few more posts and this question will be redundant


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 14, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #3 of 40 (5055 views)
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Re: [tsf] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but I'm just wondering why there isn't an AAD manufacturer that allows programmable firing altitude

There is: The new CYPRES has this feature I am told.

What makes you think it will solve, or for that matter, even help the problem?
What evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open?

Perhaps the manufacturers of these rigs should be required to publically post, or at least inform the public, of the results of their performance testing for this mode of failure. If they would post these results you would have the knowledge to properly set your new adjustable AAD. Until then you are just guessing.

Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 14, 2013, 11:29 AM
Post #4 of 40 (4994 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far.
IMO, this is a sad indictment on the reliability of our gear.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Apr 14, 2013, 5:21 PM
Post #5 of 40 (4894 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi John,

Quote:
What evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open?

The scuttlebutt that I heard in Daytona was that both free bags were found in trees near the bodies.

If true, then 250 ft or so would have been another two AAD saves.

JerryBaumchen


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 14, 2013, 6:04 PM
Post #6 of 40 (4858 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The scuttlebutt that I heard in Daytona was that both free bags were found in trees near the bodies.

I heard the same thing. What I want to know is how they were hanging in the trees, were or are there any marks on them.

Maybe the trees pulled the free bag out of the container. On the other hand they could have landed there as apparantly did the one in NJ. A third reason could be complete line strip and bag dump leaving the canopy in the tray as happened several years ago at the Nationals.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Apr 14, 2013, 6:33 PM
Post #7 of 40 (4840 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe the trees pulled the free bag out of the container. On the other hand they could have landed there as apparantly did the one in NJ. A third reason could be complete line strip and bag dump leaving the canopy in the tray as happened several years ago at the Nationals.

The first would be particularly likely if they were found entangled in the trees immediately above each jumper. The last scenario seems unlikely, because it would have to had to occur on two jumpers simultaneously; each wearing completely different styles of rigs.

But in any event, I think the speculation has probably gone as far as it can (although I think it has been very useful and educational). Now we need facts. It sure would be useful to get a summary from someone who has seen the video and/or the AAD data.

Anyone?


floormonkey  (D License)

Apr 15, 2013, 6:20 AM
Post #8 of 40 (4708 views)
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Re: [tsf] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

All Cypres 2's maintained or manufactured after Jan 13 have this feature.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 15, 2013, 8:12 AM
Post #9 of 40 (4664 views)
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Re: [floormonkey] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All Cypres 2's maintained or manufactured after Jan 13 have this feature.


UnsureAll 20 of them.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 15, 2013, 8:29 AM
Post #10 of 40 (4649 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can somebody tell me the emergency procedure in a plane load of skydivers, when the offset feature has been implimented, and the aircraft suddenly dives?

I think the procedure should be to reach around your back and grab your reserve and hang on to it. Or perhaps everyone should grab everyone elses reserve, kinda like a conga line??

Hey, can anyone tell me how to shut off, quickly, my adhd if it's not readily accesable??? Like do I have to fully take off my rig to reach it??

Like I have said on multiple posts in the past if you actually have to use this thing (AAD's) your nuts!

All this reliance on AAD's has done,.. is to create a skydiving public that is dulisional and living in some kind of fantasy land. This is why this issue is so heavaley debated and full of emotion!

It's kind of like this: The USPA is contimplating raising the min opening altitudes. Might be a good thing! Now what happens??? How can we make money off of this???

Well lets add a new feature to our AAD's,
PEOPLE WILL FEEL BETTER!

Will it actually do anything?

By the way: Just how dangerous are 2 outs?

I mean after you have left the aircraft?

Are there more no pulls as compared with 2 out fatals?

I want to say that it has not gone unnoticed that everyone here wan'ts to do everything they can to have a zero fatality sport, this has not gone unnotice and is gratly appreciated!!!

Many who read these threads don't understand this, they think this is just endless debate without end, this is not endless debate without end,it is an attempt to save 30 - 40 people each year! And the way 2013 is going it is going to be more than 40! And that sucks!


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 15, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #11 of 40 (4644 views)
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Re: [tsf] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

even if you have an older model of cypres - dz offset mode allows you to set a different firing mode for ONE jump that is.

biut as john sherman said: why would you think that this feature solves more problems than it will creata in the long(er) run????


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 15, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #12 of 40 (4627 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
even if you have an older model of cypres - dz offset mode allows you to set a different firing mode for ONE jump that is.

biut as john sherman said: why would you think that this feature solves more problems than it will creata in the long(er) run????


Smile

Unsure

Well meaning?

Here we go: another skydiver using the word "OFFSET" and raising altitude in the same sentence.

See some of my other posts,...

Somebody please send this to the ADHD manufacturers...

And this isn't an issue???????


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 15, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #13 of 40 (4609 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can somebody tell me the emergency procedure in a plane load of skydivers,
>when the offset feature has been implimented, and the aircraft suddenly dives?

If it is the result of a wing falling off? Bail out and open your reserve.

If the pilot is just descending for some reason? (weather, engine out etc) Sit tight and don't move around.

>Hey, can anyone tell me how to shut off, quickly, my adhd if it's not readily accesable?

You generally can't.

>Like I have said on multiple posts in the past if you actually have to use this thing
>(AAD's) your nuts!

I know at least one guy who had to use it; he was not nuts. I'm glad he had once since he's still here.

>All this reliance on AAD's has done,.. is to create a skydiving public that is
>dulisional and living in some kind of fantasy land.

??


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Apr 16, 2013, 11:08 AM
Post #14 of 40 (4401 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
but I'm just wondering why there isn't an AAD manufacturer that allows programmable firing altitude

There is: The new CYPRES has this feature I am told.

What makes you think it will solve, or for that matter, even help the problem?
What evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open?

Perhaps the manufacturers of these rigs should be required to publically post, or at least inform the public, of the results of their performance testing for this mode of failure. If they would post these results you would have the knowledge to properly set your new adjustable AAD. Until then you are just guessing.

Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far.

Your posts are getting ridiculous, John. Everyone's heard it before.

And for the sake of entertainment, why don't you enlighten us about the 8 "problem" rigs. Brands, models, specific problems you have uncovered with each. That sort of thing.

After all, shouldn't a manufacturer be required to publicly post the specifics of any performance issues found in competing rigs?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 17, 2013, 5:58 AM
Post #15 of 40 (4299 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually John speaks a lot of sense. He's a bit intense some of the time, but who isn't?


danornan  (D 11308)

Apr 17, 2013, 12:41 PM
Post #16 of 40 (4186 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

same here.....to the previous post.....

"Your posts are getting ridiculous, John. Everyone's heard it before."

Chuck - You speak for yourself! I appreciate John's comments, incite and history. You are not the one to monitor comments....


(This post was edited by danornan on Apr 17, 2013, 12:42 PM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 17, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #17 of 40 (4149 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Not every rig has this problem just 8 of them so far.

8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 17, 2013, 2:40 PM
Post #18 of 40 (4131 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

>8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents.

Good point. There is more to gear safety (and functionality) than the design of a rig, although that surely affects it.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 17, 2013, 3:30 PM
Post #19 of 40 (4109 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents.

Good point. There is more to gear safety (and functionality) than the design of a rig, although that surely affects it.

I wish we had more information about all of the incidents. I was giving some credence towards the "small overstuffed container" theory until this last one, which included a student rig. They don't generally fall into that category. Sure would be easier if all the information was known and collated.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 18, 2013, 11:49 AM
Post #20 of 40 (3947 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>8 different rigs. Maybe it isn't the rigs. Maybe we should be looking for factors that are common in ALL of these incidents.

Good point. There is more to gear safety (and functionality) than the design of a rig, although that surely affects it.

So, at least 8 different rigs. Does anybody know if they all used the same reserve canopy (I mean design, we know they used different sizes)? Does anybody know if they all had the same AAD?


mbondvegas  (A 49817)

Apr 18, 2013, 7:06 PM
Post #21 of 40 (3857 views)
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Re: [tsf] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can adjust the firing altitude of a Vigil II. See the manual and "altitude correction".


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Apr 18, 2013, 9:45 PM
Post #22 of 40 (3834 views)
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Re: [tsf] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

As was just posted and to simply answer your question.


The Vigil can be set to fire higher than factory setting - (150 feet increments). And the higher setting will be automatically defaulted everytime you turn on the device.

This can be set in the field by the user and it's designed so that you can't do it accidently.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


gregpso  (Student)

Apr 18, 2013, 11:44 PM
Post #23 of 40 (3812 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi John,

Quote:
What evidence is there that more time would have allowed these reserves to open?

The scuttlebutt that I heard in Daytona was that both free bags were found in trees near the bodies.

If true, then 250 ft or so would have been another two AAD saves.

JerryBaumchen

What he said


gregpso  (Student)

Apr 19, 2013, 1:57 AM
Post #24 of 40 (3783 views)
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Re: [gregpso] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

NO one has ever explained (to me anyway) why AAD firing cannot be raised to 1000 feet. It may or may not have made a difference on this occasion.. but I am tipping it would have.

Send some more abusive PMs I get off on them.(not really but I am used to them)

I would have thought simple logic.. may be a problem with AADs firing too late answer increase height. anything else I can help you with. (Joke)


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 19, 2013, 5:07 AM
Post #25 of 40 (3743 views)
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Re: [gregpso] Why isn't there an AAD with adjustable firing altitude? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NO one has ever explained (to me anyway) why AAD firing cannot be raised to 1000 feet. It may or may not have made a difference on this occasion.. but I am tipping it would have.

Send some more abusive PMs I get off on them.(not really but I am used to them)

I would have thought simple logic.. may be a problem with AADs firing too late answer increase height. anything else I can help you with. (Joke)

Greg, quite simply there is a tolerance and allowance on any aad firing altitude. They already fire between 750 and 1000 ft. Raising it another 250ft means it would be 1000 to 1250. On formation skydivers it's not uncommon to be.pitching at 2000 ft, as a result the chance of an unwanted AAD fire increases. You need to see the whole picture, we trade off safety for fun all the time. If we wanted to be totally safe we wouldn't jump just post about it on dz.comTongue


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