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Vigil discussion was missing jumpers Zhills 3-23-13

 


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 7, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #1 of 21 (3792 views)
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Vigil discussion was missing jumpers Zhills 3-23-13 Can't Post

Vigil will stay on if it believes it is in flight. In rare circumstances it may think it is still above the altitude it was at when turned on because of changes in pressure or because you have driven to a different location that is higher. The manual clearly tells you to turn the unit off before transporting. Many of the comments on here are answered by simply reading the manual that comes with your AAD. I find it nothing less than astounding that anyone would use a piece of equipment that your life may depend on and not read the manual. There are differences in the way Cypress and Vigil operate. Those differences are deliberate and justifiable but the owner must understand the implications or the difference could become a problem.
In reply to:
There were two jumpers at the World Meet in Dubai last December who both had two outs due to AAD fires and landed in the Persian Gulf. Same team. Same jump. (not USA)

They both had the older version of the Vigil and had, evidently, traveled half way around the world with their AADs still on.

While they were making their first practice jump before the meet - Voila.

When asked if they did a gear check before donning their rigs they responded - 'Yes and thought it strange that their AADs were on. But then just assumed that the rigging loft turned on their AADs for them during the mandatory gear check at registration.'

Maybe they were thinking 'Wow - we heard Skydive Dubai was a great place but this is real service.'

Th DZ did fish them out of the gulf.

BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


(This post was edited by LouDiamond on Jun 16, 2013, 11:04 AM)


Deyan  (D 322)

Apr 8, 2013, 12:00 AM
Post #2 of 21 (3621 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Paul,

not to argue with you but

Quote:
Vigil will stay on if it believes it is in flight

This statement is partially incorrect. I'll explain why.
Apparently they have changed that function on the Vigil. The new Vigils ( from # 26172 ) WILL shut down after 14h even in flight, but don't bother reading the manual. It's not there. The info is on the flier they will put in the box with the new unit. When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual.

So reading the manual is not always the answer.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 8, 2013, 12:10 AM
Post #3 of 21 (3615 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can we take Vigil function to the Gear forum?
This incident, both had Cypres.


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 8, 2013, 5:09 AM
Post #4 of 21 (3471 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Deyan

You are correct but there are many original vigil's in service with their original manuals. The point is that many of the comments in this thread are answered by simply reading the manual that comes with the AAD Cypress or Vigil. and clearly the questions and comment that are being asked in this thread need to be answered in this thread. with all due respect to the previous poster although he is correct in that perhaps those questions should not be being asked here..
In reply to:

Paul,

not to argue with you but

Quote:
Vigil will stay on if it believes it is in flight

This statement is partially incorrect. I'll explain why.
Apparently they have changed that function on the Vigil. The new Vigils ( from # 26172 ) WILL shut down after 14h even in flight, but don't bother reading the manual. It's not there. The info is on the flier they will put in the box with the new unit. When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual.

So reading the manual is not always the answer.


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 8, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #5 of 21 (3212 views)
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Re: [normiss] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately you have moved my reply from the Z hill incident thread where it was answering incorrect or misleading information posted previously but you have not moved or removed that still misleading piece of information Post 161 I think it was. You will notice I only post on rare occasions when I see something that needs to be addressed.

In reply to:
Can we take Vigil function to the Gear forum?
This incident, both had Cypres.




Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Apr 9, 2013, 5:57 AM
Post #7 of 21 (3021 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All units sold or delivered since then were accompanied by A Reminder to be Vigil-ant flyer (see attachment). In this flyer we ask you to ALWAYS manually shut down your Vigl at the end of the day, and before leaving the Drop Zone!
If these recommandations are followed, there will be no difference between all the versions before and after the change. We therefore did not change the manual, as we wanted to prevent people to reading a new version of the manual for an older unit that was made before SN 26176 and having an "Airborne" issue.
http://www.skycentre.net/...pe=post&id=10000






ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 9, 2013, 12:21 PM
Post #10 of 21 (2814 views)
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Re: [Remster] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Stop being a jerk in a topical forum please...


This is the gear forum, isn't it???

And this person makes this claim:

"Apparently they have changed that function on the Vigil. The new Vigils ( from # 26172 ) WILL shut down after 14h even in flight, but don't bother reading the manual. It's not there. The info is on the flier they will put in the box with the new unit. When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual. "


Has the fucking "Function" changed or not?

APARENTLY MANY OF YOU THAT ARE OUT THERE, ARE RALLY OUT THEIR AND CARE MORE ABOUT SPREADING MORE MISINFORMATION THAN HOW YOUR OWN FUCKING AAD WORKS, OR NOT,...


http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4469697#4469697


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Apr 9, 2013, 12:50 PM)


Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Apr 9, 2013, 2:58 PM
Post #11 of 21 (2752 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

What are you so worried?
The change applies only to the functionality Vigil users of new devices.
Therefore, management should have changes or additions to these users.
It was logical to place the information on changes to the site Vigil.
Change the instructions are not the best option. Many devices has never been sent to update the program.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 9, 2013, 4:22 PM
Post #12 of 21 (2692 views)
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Re: [Nelyubin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What are you so worried?
The change applies only to the functionality Vigil users of new devices.
Therefore, management should have changes or additions to these users.
It was logical to place the information on changes to the site Vigil.
Change the instructions are not the best option. Many devices has never been sent to update the program.

We had an incident following some night jumping last year. The packers at a local dz saw that the cypress was on the following morning and thought nothing of it, on a rental rig. They handed it to the customer, the customer thought nothing of it. It shut off, the person opened visably low, the dz owner runs up as this individual is walking back and demands to know if the AAD is on or off and or did the customer check it??? Of course the customer is going nuts because "everyone saw it on!" What if the kid really needed it?


The vigil has not changed how it operates, after 14 hours it shuts off, IF it is within 150 + - of its reference altitude, if it is not near its refrence altitude it stay's on, can you say what if a front has moved thru the area, and then the aircraft as it climbs, the unit now within 150' shuts off??

Do your EP's change as you change your offset altitude?


This is a nightmare for the pilots, if you have an open design and then you have to desend? Can you say take off your racer please as I'm diving twords safe ground at 1500 ft per min down? And please turn off your AAd's, >>>> not going to happen!

The whole offset issue is very poorly documented, and we don't need so many confused people making shit up about how these things work.

I want to see explicit documentation esp regarding the offset ground reference shutoff altitudes in the stinkin manuals! It is not too much too ask!


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 14, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #13 of 21 (2479 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Deyan

You are correct but there are many original vigil's in service with their original manuals. The point is that many of the comments in this thread are answered by simply reading the manual that comes with the AAD Cypress or Vigil. and clearly the questions and comment that are being asked in this thread need to be answered in this thread. with all due respect to the previous poster although he is correct in that perhaps those questions should not be being asked here..
In reply to:

Paul,

not to argue with you but

Quote:
Vigil will stay on if it believes it is in flight

This statement is partially incorrect. I'll explain why.
Apparently they have changed that function on the Vigil. The new Vigils ( from # 26172 ) WILL shut down after 14h even in flight, but don't bother reading the manual. It's not there. The info is on the flier they will put in the box with the new unit. When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual.


So reading the manual is not always the answer.

I want to make this perfectly clear;

The "Flyier" that this poser posted and makes reference to makes no reference to any shutoff parameters other than what is in the vigil manual!

AND THAT IS UNTILL THIS VIGIL UNIT PASSES WITHIN 150' OF ITS ORIGINAL REFERENCE ALTITUDE IT WILL NOT SHUT OFF. THE 14 HOUR SHUTOFF IS A POTENTIAL PROBLEM FOR ROUND THE CLOCK OPERATIONS AND IF THE RIG WAS JUMPED THE PREVIOUS NIGHT! THE FLIER MAKES THE POINT WHEN IN DOUBT "RESET THE UNIT!"

Because there have already been incidents where individuals have just looked at an AAD, seen that it is on, and then using the rig and it has shut off, in the air at the 14 hour mark!

I find it totally unacceptable that this person: p.w. stockwell has posted this misleading information and then makes up a story regarding the fine folks at Virgil. There is no reference to this claim on Vigil's web site nor is there any such reference in the box of new units,...

I also find the comment about: "When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual.",

very disturbing that so many people accept this reasoning??? The manual's need serious clarification !! Both on this shutoff issue, with Vigil units, and clarification of the offset functionality with both Cypres and Vigil units.

People need to understand the operation of their ADHD's when using the offset functions and the manuals are noticibly deficient in this area,...

you need to understand that your AAD isn't going to work if yo have large offsets entered and the pilot returns to the original field! Or if the pilot needs to manuever etc!

You need to understand that in this type of an emergency (under this select parameters) you are going to have your AAD fire as you are trying to exit the aircraft in an aircraft emergency!!!


rifleman  (Student)

Apr 14, 2013, 10:12 AM
Post #14 of 21 (2450 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you'll find that it was Deyan that made the assertions that you're complaining about. p.w.stockwell is a qualified rigger with many years of experience and taught me on my packing course - he's also the person who created the reserve extraction force test that has been adopted by the BPA.


Deyan  (D 322)

Apr 14, 2013, 11:09 AM
Post #15 of 21 (2415 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The "Flyier" that this poser posted and makes reference to makes no reference to any shutoff parameters other than what is in the vigil manual

I said that. Not Paul.
I guess, you were not in the same room with me and about 70 other folks during the PIA symposium when Candie Procos from Vigil USA made that statement?!

And there's really no place for name calling here. I hope you gonna learn this when you grow up.

P.S. I didn't post any flier ,because I don't have one. Do your own research!


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 15, 2013, 7:13 AM
Post #16 of 21 (2307 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The "Flyier" that this poser posted and makes reference to makes no reference to any shutoff parameters other than what is in the vigil manual

I said that. Not Paul.
I guess, you were not in the same room with me and about 70 other folks during the PIA symposium when Candie Procos from Vigil USA made that statement?!

And there's really no place for name calling here. I hope you gonna learn this when you grow up.

P.S. I didn't post any flier ,because I don't have one. Do your own research!


"This statement is partially incorrect. I'll explain why.
Apparently they have changed that function on the Vigil. The new Vigils ( from # 26172 ) WILL shut down after 14h even in flight, but don't bother reading the manual. It's not there. The info is on the flier they will put in the box with the new unit. When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual. "

ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION,...


tHIS INFO IS NOT IN THE BOX WITH NEW UNITS,...NOR HAVE YOU CORRECTLY QUOTED THE VIGIL FOLKS...


MY POINT IS THIS: THERE ARE THOSE OF US THAT EXPECT CRITICAL INFORMATION TO ACCOMPANY THE THINGS WE PURCHASE AND THEN THERE ARE THOSE OF YO THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION!


Deyan  (D 322)

Apr 16, 2013, 1:01 PM
Post #17 of 21 (2209 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION,...


tHIS INFO IS NOT IN THE BOX WITH NEW UNITS,...NOR HAVE YOU CORRECTLY QUOTED THE VIGIL FOLKS...

I'll ask you again. How do you know that I'm spreading misinformation if you were not there?I'm telling you what we were told in the "Understanding the Vigil AAD" seminar. If you are not happy to hear things "second hand", maybe you should consider going there the next time and ask those questions .

If you have an e-mail or any other statement from the manufacturer, that they didn't change the function I'm talking about, post it here so the misinformation can stop.

In reply to:
MY POINT IS THIS: THERE ARE THOSE OF US THAT EXPECT CRITICAL INFORMATION TO ACCOMPANY THE THINGS WE PURCHASE AND THEN THERE ARE THOSE OF YO THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION!

You don't have a point. You just stir the pot!

....and check your "caps lock" button....it's stuck!


Deyan  (D 322)

Jun 14, 2013, 2:52 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1865 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
In reply to:
Quote:
The "Flyier" that this poser posted and makes reference to makes no reference to any shutoff parameters other than what is in the vigil manual

I said that. Not Paul.
I guess, you were not in the same room with me and about 70 other folks during the PIA symposium when Candie Procos from Vigil USA made that statement?!

And there's really no place for name calling here. I hope you gonna learn this when you grow up.

P.S. I didn't post any flier ,because I don't have one. Do your own research!


"This statement is partially incorrect. I'll explain why.
Apparently they have changed that function on the Vigil. The new Vigils ( from # 26172 ) WILL shut down after 14h even in flight, but don't bother reading the manual. It's not there. The info is on the flier they will put in the box with the new unit. When I asked why, not in the manual, they said that the change is not significant to change the whole manual. "

ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION,...


tHIS INFO IS NOT IN THE BOX WITH NEW UNITS,...NOR HAVE YOU CORRECTLY QUOTED THE VIGIL FOLKS...


MY POINT IS THIS: THERE ARE THOSE OF US THAT EXPECT CRITICAL INFORMATION TO ACCOMPANY THE THINGS WE PURCHASE AND THEN THERE ARE THOSE OF YO THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION!
Sorry for digging out an old thread,but my buddy ChrisD should see this.
ChrisD, are you there buddy?

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

The name calling was for nothing. There was a change in the function by the time of my first post, and now it is a SB. Is there something you want to say? If you do, please do it with the caps lock off!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jun 15, 2013, 8:04 PM
Post #19 of 21 (1688 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there was ever any name calling?

But thanks for posting those links.


THIS MEANS THAT FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS, VIGIL CHANGED THE PARAMETERS OF THEIR UNITS AND DIDN'T NOTIFY THEIR CUSTOMERS UNTILL NOW!



Gee customer service to the max?

Did they change any fucking thing else?

AND NOT BOTHER TO NOTIFY THE USERS?

This is worse than the misinformation that Vigil packed a notice, (they did not) in the units where they made this change.

How to inspire confidence and trust!

Next AAD is a Cyprus...

Cool

C


degeneration  (C 106811)

Jun 17, 2013, 3:55 AM
Post #20 of 21 (1535 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Cyprus is a country...


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 5, 2014, 3:06 AM
Post #21 of 21 (976 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
I don't think there was ever any name calling?

But thanks for posting those links.


THIS MEANS THAT FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS, VIGIL CHANGED THE PARAMETERS OF THEIR UNITS AND DIDN'T NOTIFY THEIR CUSTOMERS UNTILL NOW!



Gee customer service to the max?

Did they change any fucking thing else?

AND NOT BOTHER TO NOTIFY THE USERS?

This is worse than the misinformation that Vigil packed a notice, (they did not) in the units where they made this change.

How to inspire confidence and trust!

Next AAD is a Cyprus...

Cool

C

Someone else dug this thread up/linked to it. Just to point out both manufacturers make software and hardware updates. There is no listed version/bug fix list for either product so Vigil/Cypres makes no odds in this regards when making a buying decision.



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