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Video - near collision, how to avoid?

 


mcpep  (A License)

Mar 14, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Video - near collision, how to avoid? Can't Post

Hi there, 1st post yay Smile

I'm a RAPS student who is still on the rope, while I wait for the diabolical British weather to improve I'm trying to pick up some good safety tips from those who know their shit!

I spotted this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGqJsmD37GM

and was wondering how best to avoid that? Obviously track away but how do you make sure you don't track the same way as someone below you? Keep a visual on their movement constantly?

Cheers!


jzzsxm  (B License)

Mar 14, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #2 of 21 (3244 views)
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Re: [mcpep] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

I only have 59 jumps, so I'd be interested in some answers as well, but here's what I would do:

If I found myself that far above a group I would dive down and get on their level (altitude permitting) so that I'd be in their line of sight OR I would track away (perpendicular to the jump run) and pull high.

Thoughts?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 14, 2013, 1:04 PM
Post #3 of 21 (3221 views)
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Re: [mcpep] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to tell whether the guy was actually supposed to be jumping with the two way group that come in frame. If he was, he wasn't doing a great job of either 1) joining the formation or 2) getting and keeping them in frame if he was doing outside video.

My gut instinct looking at the video is that he was a solo skydiver who exited after the two-way, and I'd wonder whether he even saw the two-way during the skydive. Maybe, maybe not. The camera certainly picks them up, but nothing that the skydiver with the camera does seems to indicate that he is taking any action to get farther away from them. The camera picks up the two-way, then he looks at his altimeter, and continues his skydive.

Other things I see. He doesn't scan around him at all before pulling. No waveoff. During the opening, he looks straight up at his canopy, focusing only on the canopy rather than the airspace around him. Awareness seems pretty low, yet (gee what a surprise) there's a camera on his head.

In summary some ways to prevent:
1) Know what your exit separation should be, and stick to it.
2) Be aware of others who are exiting before and after you. (Corollary: know line of flight and which way to look for others)
3) Wave off, even on a solo - because if you've screwed up 1 &2 it helps the people from other groups who end up in the same airspace as you know that you're going to pull).
4) Look around you before you pull.
5) Look around you as your canopy is opening. Once you have a few jumps under your belt, you know pretty well what a good opening feels like. If it's feeling good as it opens, there's no need to stare at it quite so intently.
6) Leave the damn camera off your head till you have better awareness.

(Edit to add: even if my interpretation of the video is off or somewhat off, I'd still hold that the recommendations above are good in any case to minimize the likelihood of collisons or near misses.)


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Mar 14, 2013, 2:51 PM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Mar 14, 2013, 1:11 PM
Post #4 of 21 (3211 views)
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Re: [jzzsxm] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I only have 59 jumps, so I'd be interested in some answers as well, but here's what I would do:

If I found myself that far above a group I would dive down and get on their level (altitude permitting) so that I'd be in their line of sight OR I would track away (perpendicular to the jump run) and pull high.

Thoughts?

Without more info, this would all be speculation... but, If this guy was in the group below him, he should have concentrated on closing in on his group. Instead, he looses sight of them. Unsure

The SIM recommends being competent in the discipline you're filming if you intend to wear a camera. Clearly, he does not seem to have the skills necessary to complete this dive flow (if he was with this group) and therefore, should maybe reconsider the camera. Smile


PalmSky

Mar 14, 2013, 1:55 PM
Post #5 of 21 (3155 views)
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Re: [mcpep] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy going by with the open canopy looks to be wearing shorts, imo, not even part of the two way seen. Could be poor exit separation between groups overall. Nothing to do with wearing the camera.


(This post was edited by PalmSky on Mar 14, 2013, 1:56 PM)


YvonneWiggers  (D License)

Mar 14, 2013, 2:28 PM
Post #6 of 21 (3112 views)
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Re: [PalmSky] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you follow the 2-way in the video you can see them in frame on the rights side for quite a while, so as far as I can see the two (!!!) skydivers below him are not the ones from the 2-way you see at the beginning.
Attachments: skydiver below.jpg (287 KB)
  canopy and other skydiver below.jpg (291 KB)


Morg

Mar 14, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #7 of 21 (3031 views)
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Re: [mcpep] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok well i was trying to avoid posting here as I dont want to get embroiled in any online arguments about wearing cameras etc.. Anyway I guess if I posted the video I might aswell post some facts to allow you guys to understand it better.

- I was on a three way, nothing to do with filming i was just doing a 3 way for fun and happened to be wearing a camera.
- We left about 4 sec separation
- The other 2 were falling way to fast for me and I couldnt catch them.
- I decided to move away but keep sight of them (i keep looking back at them) whilst heading perpendicular to jump run. I think this was the wrong decision, I should have either stayed with them or just tracked away completely. Also I feel by focusing my attention on them I was less aware of other airspace and did not see the jumpers below me.
- And yes I didnt wave off, another mistake.

Anyway those are the facts, I am the first to admit Im not the most skilled skydiver and you can pick apart my dive as much as you want. There are a few mistakes that I made throughout. However many of these are irrelevant as It was the previous group which we drifted over and I did not see. As I tracked perpendicular to jump run and opened at planned height I feel this was caused by a combination of not enough separation and freaky bad luck.

Thanks to the guy who uploaded those stills of the jumpers in free fall below. This scares me I'm surprised I'm the only one who had a close call.

Its interesting how I used to think the sky was so big and empty, now I seem to notice traffic everywhere... I think my eyes have been opened a little after shitting myself on this jump.


(This post was edited by Morg on Mar 14, 2013, 4:00 PM)


PalmSky

Mar 14, 2013, 4:02 PM
Post #8 of 21 (3021 views)
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Re: [YvonneWiggers] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you follow the 2-way in the video you can see them in frame on the rights side for quite a while, so as far as I can see the two (!!!) skydivers below him are not the ones from the 2-way you see at the beginning.

if it's clipped at :23 it appears the two way goes spinning out of frame, as if the guy videoing went lateral down the line of jump run. Then at :32 & :36 you see even lower jumpers.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 14, 2013, 4:11 PM
Post #9 of 21 (3004 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting. Did you talk on the ground with the other jumpers to see if you could figure out the source of the lack of separation? What was the outcome of that conversation?


Morg

Mar 14, 2013, 4:45 PM
Post #10 of 21 (2969 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

No I wasn't able to. However I don't think it was anyone else's fault but my own.


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 14, 2013, 5:02 PM
Post #11 of 21 (2958 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No I wasn't able to. However I don't think it was anyone else's fault but my own.

First rule of posting on dz.com NEVER take personal resposnibility, second rule never admit you made a mistake....

Seriously though, well done for analysing your jump and learning from it. Exit separation scares me, I hate less experienced or cavalier jumpers going straight after me. I know that people get yelled at to go, and adrenaline can make time seem to go slower causing people to leave to little separation. Something I picked up from Joey 'Sunman' is counting off the exit separation on your fingers and out loud. It paces you, let's other in the plane know your plan (you're not asleep at the door etc) and gives them an indication of when you are going.


Morg

Mar 14, 2013, 5:15 PM
Post #12 of 21 (2940 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha good point, i kind of regretted posting the video at first...

Its kind of funny about what you say about inexperienced jumpers behind you. Im sure rightfully so the people in front of us would have been furious. Now me still as an inexperienced jumper is going to be paranoid about who's behind me!!!!

Its interesting that it seems with most incidents I watch and read about there are a number of variables that have to be combined to cause an accident or close call. So you can pretty much do the wrong thing and repeat the same mistakes hundreds of times unknowingly or without caring. Until one day those factors combine with another and cause an accident.


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 14, 2013, 7:25 PM
Post #13 of 21 (2847 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha good point, i kind of regretted posting the video at first...

Its kind of funny about what you say about inexperienced jumpers behind you. Im sure rightfully so the people in front of us would have been furious. Now me still as an inexperienced jumper is going to be paranoid about who's behind me!!!!

Its interesting that it seems with most incidents I watch and read about there are a number of variables that have to be combined to cause an accident or close call. So you can pretty much do the wrong thing and repeat the same mistakes hundreds of times unknowingly or without caring. Until one day those factors combine with another and cause an accident.

Posters on dz.com are terrible for tearing people to shreds, without knowing the backstory. It's good to post the video's, as long as you have a thick skin, there is usually stuff to learn.

Yip - one of the most dangerous things is consistently getting away with doing something wrong. That is why coaching is so valuable, it is focused attention on what you are doing. It's also one of the reasons that it is good to travel. Even dz's have systemic problems, so your coaches and instructors don't pick up on them. For an extreme example, I learn't to jump in Africa, our dz had NO pattern training at all.


EOCS  (C License)

Mar 15, 2013, 3:20 AM
Post #14 of 21 (2659 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok well i was trying to avoid posting here as I dont want to get embroiled in any online arguments about wearing cameras etc.. Anyway I guess if I posted the video I might aswell post some facts to allow you guys to understand it better.

- I was on a three way, nothing to do with filming i was just doing a 3 way for fun and happened to be wearing a camera.
- We left about 4 sec separation
- The other 2 were falling way to fast for me and I couldnt catch them.
- I decided to move away but keep sight of them (i keep looking back at them) whilst heading perpendicular to jump run. I think this was the wrong decision, I should have either stayed with them or just tracked away completely. Also I feel by focusing my attention on them I was less aware of other airspace and did not see the jumpers below me.
- And yes I didnt wave off, another mistake.

Anyway those are the facts, I am the first to admit Im not the most skilled skydiver and you can pick apart my dive as much as you want. There are a few mistakes that I made throughout. However many of these are irrelevant as It was the previous group which we drifted over and I did not see. As I tracked perpendicular to jump run and opened at planned height I feel this was caused by a combination of not enough separation and freaky bad luck.

Thanks to the guy who uploaded those stills of the jumpers in free fall below. This scares me I'm surprised I'm the only one who had a close call.

Its interesting how I used to think the sky was so big and empty, now I seem to notice traffic everywhere... I think my eyes have been opened a little after shitting myself on this jump.

Good on you for posting, very cool thing to do.
That would open my eyes aswell, hell it did and i was not even there. I saw somewhere on here a quote like ''learn from others mistakes because you will not live long enough to make them all'' having taken that to heart i will learn from that vid for sure! Also yea really freaky stills, good thing squares fly forward eh?


mcpep  (A License)

Mar 15, 2013, 4:51 AM
Post #15 of 21 (2620 views)
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Re: [mcpep] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

cheers for all the replies especially from the dude in the video, cheers for putting it on youtube it in the 1st place for others to learn from.

I guess the answer to my original question of how to avoid this is mainly better exit seperation..


Premier Remster  (C License)

Mar 15, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #16 of 21 (2519 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you all lived. A few points:

4 seconds, especially 4 noobie seconds (no offence) is pretty short. Unless the ground speed was super fast, that's really not a lot. Add the noobie affect (ie, counting to 4 like if a nuclear device was in the plane about to blow up) and you have even less separation.

As you pointed out: stay with the group. Again, no offence, but how sure are you that you were actually properly perpendicular to jumprun? The extra "getting away" was probably was put you in harms way of the group that left before you.

As far as waiving off, sure, that's a very good habit to have in general, but it's nothing that would have helped here. Waving off helps people above you to see that you are about to open. Your job is to not be above anyone else.

When things don't go to plan, that's when you have to be extra attentive to your environment, because the plan is no longer working.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Mar 15, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #17 of 21 (2433 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting. With this info, I'd like to modify my post above...

If you're doing RW, learn to fly with the group and STAY with the group. Never give up on completing the dive AS PLANNED. This will help you learn to>>> swoop, if you need to add weight, fall rate control, and a number of other valuble skills.

Rethink the camera until you're RW skills are up to speed. Not sure of your jump #'s but you should be competent in the discipline your filming.

You won't get picked on here because your looking to learn and improve. I respect that. I'm learning here because you posted here. Thanks. Smile


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Mar 15, 2013, 10:23 AM)


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Mar 16, 2013, 4:52 PM
Post #18 of 21 (2065 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok well i was trying to avoid posting here as I dont want to get embroiled in any online arguments about wearing cameras etc.. Anyway I guess if I posted the video I might aswell post some facts to allow you guys to understand it better.

- I was on a three way, nothing to do with filming i was just doing a 3 way for fun and happened to be wearing a camera.
- We left about 4 sec separation
- The other 2 were falling way to fast for me and I couldnt catch them.
- I decided to move away but keep sight of them (i keep looking back at them) whilst heading perpendicular to jump run. I think this was the wrong decision, I should have either stayed with them or just tracked away completely. Also I feel by focusing my attention on them I was less aware of other airspace and did not see the jumpers below me.
- And yes I didnt wave off, another mistake.

Anyway those are the facts, I am the first to admit Im not the most skilled skydiver and you can pick apart my dive as much as you want. There are a few mistakes that I made throughout. However many of these are irrelevant as It was the previous group which we drifted over and I did not see. As I tracked perpendicular to jump run and opened at planned height I feel this was caused by a combination of not enough separation and freaky bad luck.

Thanks to the guy who uploaded those stills of the jumpers in free fall below. This scares me I'm surprised I'm the only one who had a close call.

Its interesting how I used to think the sky was so big and empty, now I seem to notice traffic everywhere... I think my eyes have been opened a little after shitting myself on this jump.


Dude, I too had a pretty close call on a jump soon after graduating. I really gave me a clearer picture of separation during freefall and under canopy.

You lived, so did the other jumper. Don't let it or the other crap people are saying get to you. You have done the hardest part, admitted it and the mistakes you have made. Now share those mistakes with new jumpers and experienced jumpers.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 16, 2013, 5:42 PM
Post #19 of 21 (2040 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its interesting that it seems with most incidents I watch and read about there are a number of variables that have to be combined to cause an accident or close call. So you can pretty much do the wrong thing and repeat the same mistakes hundreds of times unknowingly or without caring. Until one day those factors combine with another and cause an accident.

In reply to:

That's called the 'chain of disaster'...and you've summed it up quite concisely.

We often say it takes 3 links to make the chain, each link represents an overlooked or ignored safely concern.

The being aware OF those links and removing them is what leads to an uneventful skydive regarding the disaster aspect.

This was a learning experience but make NO mistake, you were a fraction of a second & 3 feet away from certain injury and possibly death.

Don't do that.

The life you save could be MINE! Unimpressed


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 16, 2013, 5:43 PM)


Morg

Mar 19, 2013, 4:21 AM
Post #20 of 21 (1747 views)
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Re: [Remster] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey everyone

Thanks for the positive comments! Don't worry the 'gravity' of the situation was not lost on me. I fucking shat myself that day. In other things I have done like motocross, when things go bad Ive always had time for that 'oh shit' thought before I crash. This happened so fast that it was all over before my brain even registered it happening. Fucking scary shit.

The longer i spend skydiving the more I realise there is so much to learn. Which is the best thing about it.

Though to be honest i think in any sport if you fuck up this bad and no one gets hurt, its something that you will make sure never to fuck up again.

And in regards to track, i think it was probably 20degrees off maybe combined with the track of the other group might of been a contributing factor. However to be honest there was not really any proper tracking involved as I was moving away from the other jumps whilst trying to keep them in sight. As mentioned this was the wrong thing to do, just clarifying that there was dick all tracking...

I reviewed the whole video to establish the facts i posted earlier. I just never uploaded the full version as I did not know any of the jumpers that day. Coming from a filmaking background I never post any videos of other peoples faces without knowing they give me permission. Its probably no big deal in this instance, just something that was always drummed into me and a rule that has to obeyed in any commercial production.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 19, 2013, 7:44 AM
Post #21 of 21 (1677 views)
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Re: [Morg] Video - near collision, how to avoid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Next time you're jumping with people, set a base for the jump. You can have a quick chat about who falls at what speed and figure out a plan should something like this happen again. Main point of this is to keep your group together. Exit separation is something you can ask other people on the plane about too if you're not sure but you guys didn't leave enough room as has already been mentioned.

Glad you're ok and so are the two people who you floated over.



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