Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Written warnings...

 


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2013, 9:18 AM
Post #1 of 18 (3957 views)
Shortcut
Written warnings... Can't Post

Some years ago (can't find the link), someone posted about using written warnings for safety problem people.
Could someone share an example?


yoink

Mar 7, 2013, 11:16 AM
Post #2 of 18 (3830 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

We talked about it briefly in terms of possibility of a DZ shared resource here:
http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Or were you after an actual example of someone's warning? I can't remember any of those.


(This post was edited by yoink on Mar 7, 2013, 11:18 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 7, 2013, 12:31 PM
Post #3 of 18 (3748 views)
Shortcut
Re: [yoink] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...lacklisting;#4193337


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 8, 2013, 9:58 PM
Post #4 of 18 (3429 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it just an in house tool for IDing unsafe behavior of a jumper or a way to share that info with others?

The military uses simple memos for record from the supervisor to the member to document behavior as well as a solution to the problem. Its a paper trail to justify action in the future, usually called a LOR or Letter of Reprimand.

This could be a sticky subject if not an employee though, although if you had something in the waiver about it that they have to agree to to use the DZ, maybe something.

There are multiple examples out there, but here is one:

http://ww2.odu.edu/.../forms/reprimand.pdf


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 10, 2013, 1:26 PM
Post #5 of 18 (3167 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SEREJumper] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it just an in house tool for IDing unsafe behavior of a jumper or a way to share that info with others?

The military uses simple memos for record from the supervisor to the member to document behavior as well as a solution to the problem. Its a paper trail to justify action in the future, usually called a LOR or Letter of Reprimand.

This could be a sticky subject if not an employee though, although if you had something in the waiver about it that they have to agree to to use the DZ, maybe something.

There are multiple examples out there, but here is one:

http://ww2.odu.edu/.../forms/reprimand.pdf

This provides a great foundation for which to start.
The document we're looking to create is not for public use/view. It is for a written record of conversation and actions.


5.samadhi

Mar 10, 2013, 4:47 PM
Post #6 of 18 (3082 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

is it a CYA type thing from a legal standpoint or is there a more important reason behind having some paper trail?

just curious


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Mar 10, 2013, 7:12 PM
Post #7 of 18 (3007 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

Years ago dean Vernon Wormer put the Deltas on double secret probation.... that seamed to work until they went on a road trip.

I swear the topic of this tread has nothing to do with me I haven't been there in months.... I've been on a road trip.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Mar 11, 2013, 7:26 AM
Post #8 of 18 (2855 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is it just an in house tool for IDing unsafe behavior of a jumper or a way to share that info with others?

The military uses simple memos for record from the supervisor to the member to document behavior as well as a solution to the problem. Its a paper trail to justify action in the future, usually called a LOR or Letter of Reprimand.

This could be a sticky subject if not an employee though, although if you had something in the waiver about it that they have to agree to to use the DZ, maybe something.

There are multiple examples out there, but here is one:

http://ww2.odu.edu/.../forms/reprimand.pdf

This provides a great foundation for which to start.
The document we're looking to create is not for public use/view. It is for a written record of conversation and actions.

I get the motivation here. But, tread carefully! Abuse of this idea could be very easy and very harmful. Due process should be considered. Especially if this is to become publically shared info.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 11, 2013, 7:56 AM
Post #9 of 18 (2830 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The document we're looking to create is not for public use/view. It is for a written record of conversation and actions.

I think DSE explained it pretty well.

I like the idea, here is a good article on the right to refuse service.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/...-refuse-service.html

Have You Reserved Your Right to Refuse Service?
By Stephanie Rabiner, Esq. on November 3, 2011 5:45 AM | No TrackBacks
We reserve the right to refuse service.

The sign's message is clear and simple, but the truth is that a business can't reserve a wholesale right to refuse service.

As places of public accommodation, private businesses are subject to federal and state anti-discrimination laws. These statutes prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, disability, gender and sex. Some also include sexual orientation.

And others, well they outlaw even arbitrary discrimination.

For example, California's Unruh Civil Rights Act prohibits all types of arbitrary discrimination. This includes biases based on physical attributes, political beliefs, and geographical origin.

Courts also tend not to favor arbitrary discrimination. In the past, judges have used consumer protection, unfair business practice, and tort laws to punish such practices.

None of this means that you absolutely cannot refuse to serve a customer. It simply means that you need a legitimate business reason to do so.

You can usually refuse service in the following situations:

-When a customer is not properly dressed
-When a customer has been, or is being, disruptive
-When a customer harasses your employees or other customers
-When there are safety concerns (highlighted by me)
-When you know someone can't, or won't, pay
-When a customer is intoxicated or high
-When you need to protect another customer's privacy

It's still essential to apply these criteria on a bias-neutral basis. Even the most compelling business reason can't overcome obvious discrimination. So remember to use your right to refuse service wisely.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Mar 11, 2013, 8:02 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Mar 11, 2013, 7:59 AM
Post #10 of 18 (2829 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some years ago (can't find the link), someone posted about using written warnings for safety problem people.
Could someone share an example?

Doesn't a written warning put the DZO on record that they were complicit in letting a known safety risk continue to jump at the risk of others? Maybe I am just weasel adverse, but I don't want anything that can be subpoenaed during discovery. "It says here that you identified x number of saftey problems with Joe Blow Hooks through the Pattern, can you explain why 2 months later you allowed this jumper to board your aircraft for the jump when he crashed in to and killed my clients deceased son".

I don't know why a written warning is needed? You have the keys to the sky at your little slice of airspace.

Explain to them exactly the expectations, and then don't let them jump from your planes if you don't think they are demonstrating that they understand, or care to understand, what you expect of them.


(This post was edited by DougH on Mar 11, 2013, 8:03 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 11, 2013, 11:21 AM
Post #11 of 18 (2770 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DougH] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Some years ago (can't find the link), someone posted about using written warnings for safety problem people.
Could someone share an example?

Doesn't a written warning put the DZO on record that they were complicit in letting a known safety risk continue to jump at the risk of others? Maybe I am just weasel adverse, but I don't want anything that can be subpoenaed during discovery. "It says here that you identified x number of saftey problems with Joe Blow Hooks through the Pattern, can you explain why 2 months later you allowed this jumper to board your aircraft for the jump when he crashed in to and killed my clients deceased son".

I don't know why a written warning is needed? You have the keys to the sky at your little slice of airspace.

Explain to them exactly the expectations, and then don't let them jump from your planes if you don't think they are demonstrating that they understand, or care to understand, what you expect of them.


See SereJumper's response above; he hits the points pretty well.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 11, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #12 of 18 (2750 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Some years ago (can't find the link), someone posted about using written warnings for safety problem people.
Could someone share an example?

Doesn't a written warning put the DZO on record that they were complicit in letting a known safety risk continue to jump at the risk of others? Maybe I am just weasel adverse, but I don't want anything that can be subpoenaed during discovery. "It says here that you identified x number of saftey problems with Joe Blow Hooks through the Pattern, can you explain why 2 months later you allowed this jumper to board your aircraft for the jump when he crashed in to and killed my clients deceased son".

I don't know why a written warning is needed? You have the keys to the sky at your little slice of airspace.

Explain to them exactly the expectations, and then don't let them jump from your planes if you don't think they are demonstrating that they understand, or care to understand, what you expect of them.


See SereJumper's response above; he hits the points pretty well.

Agreed; DougH's and SEREJumper's posts both make excellent points.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Mar 11, 2013, 11:46 AM)


strop45  (D 957)

Mar 11, 2013, 8:32 PM
Post #13 of 18 (2562 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DougH] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't a written warning put the DZO on record that they were complicit in letting a known safety risk continue to jump at the risk of others? Maybe I am just weasel adverse, but I don't want anything that can be subpoenaed during discovery. "It says here that you identified x number of saftey problems with Joe Blow Hooks through the Pattern, can you explain why 2 months later you allowed this jumper to board your aircraft for the jump when he crashed in to and killed my clients deceased son".

I don't know why a written warning is needed? You have the keys to the sky at your little slice of airspace.

Explain to them exactly the expectations, and then don't let them jump from your planes if you don't think they are demonstrating that they understand, or care to understand, what you expect of them.
Talk about throw the baby out with the bathwater. lets not stop/warn or record the person who is unsafe, cause when he/she has an accident, you might be liable. Remind me to let you drown if I ever see in trouble in the water - much better than saving you, only to have you sue me for not doing something 100%.

At the end of the day, having a system to try and record unsafe actions so that you can do something about it, should count for you, not against you and if it does count against you, then the legal system needs a rethink :-)

IMO, far too many people are more concerned about the legal position than fixing the problem.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 12, 2013, 7:02 AM
Post #14 of 18 (2489 views)
Shortcut
Re: [strop45] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Talk about throw the baby out with the bathwater. lets not stop/warn or record the person who is unsafe, cause when he/she has an accident, you might be liable. Remind me to let you drown if I ever see in trouble in the water - much better than saving you, only to have you sue me for not doing something 100%.

You've completely twisted and mischaracterized what he said. Not a very good way to advance the cause of persuasion.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Mar 12, 2013, 7:02 AM)


thrillstalker  (C 40678)

Mar 12, 2013, 8:31 AM
Post #15 of 18 (2447 views)
Shortcut
Re: [strop45] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Talk about throw the baby out with the bathwater. lets not stop/warn or record the person who is unsafe, cause when he/she has an accident, you might be liable. Remind me to let you drown if I ever see in trouble in the water - much better than saving you, only to have you sue me for not doing something 100%.

At the end of the day, having a system to try and record unsafe actions so that you can do something about it, should count for you, not against you and if it does count against you, then the legal system needs a rethink :-)

IMO, far too many people are more concerned about the legal position than fixing the problem.

a bit of an overreaction, dont you think? if you want someone up your ass 24/7 with a little sticky note making notes on every safety violation, you should get the government involved.Unsure


DougH  (D License)

Mar 12, 2013, 1:29 PM
Post #16 of 18 (2355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [strop45] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Talk about throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Look quick! Some one threw your fourth grade level reading comprehension out with the bath water... Laugh


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 13, 2013, 10:01 AM
Post #17 of 18 (2137 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Andy9o8] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy, the legal points are well-taken but not mine to decide.
Hypothetically, the 'warned' may have uploaded multiple videos depicting situations putting others at risk. Or perhaps have boasted of their bad-azz skills. Maybe everyone at the DZ is aware of their actions.

Someone might argue the DZ may be as liable for not taking internal action as they are for taking internal action.

Either way, I'm tasked with obtaining or generating a blank, general document. What follows is the DZO's decision.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Mar 16, 2013, 4:26 AM
Post #18 of 18 (1876 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Written warnings... [In reply to] Can't Post

 Written warnings are unecessary,because you can't guarantee someone will (or can) read them. If an oral warning doesn't have any effect, the the pilot is simply instructed never to take off with that individual on board the aircraft.

I've given several knuckle sandwich warnings which proved effective as well Laugh.....



Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)