Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Swoop speeds/AAD

 


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Feb 23, 2013, 10:39 PM
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Swoop speeds/AAD Can't Post

Started a thread in gear and rigging. Any canopy pilots have any input as it is both a gear and canopy piloting issue?

http://www.dropzone.com/...ost=4448230;#4448230


matt002

Feb 24, 2013, 6:08 AM
Post #2 of 23 (3653 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are starting your rotation around the 750-800' mark, it is very unlikely that you will reach a sufficient speed within the firing window regardless of canopy or wing loading.

I have witness 2 aad fires during landings and both times the rotations were started over 1200' one was a 450, the other a 630.

It would seem to me that you need to be reaching the trigger speed much higher to get the aad to fire, so for me, I turn off my AAD when doing turns greater than 450 degress as the initiation height will always be greater than 1200' and I wil be reaching high vertical speeds close to the activation height, I don't trust the speed setting of an aad in this situation, I want the device off or not in the rig at all.

For turns of 270 degress of less, I am happy to leave it on regardless of canopy or wing loading.

For info, I have used my viso to play back peak vertical speeds during the turn, the peak speed was always reached at around the 200' mark(beginning of the recovery arc)
For a 270, peaks were around the 80mph
For 450-630 peaks were around 115mph


(This post was edited by matt002 on Feb 24, 2013, 6:09 AM)


bofh  (D 13995)

Feb 24, 2013, 9:51 AM
Post #3 of 23 (3588 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Started a thread in gear and rigging. Any canopy pilots have any input as it is both a gear and canopy piloting issue?

http://www.dropzone.com/...ost=4448230;#4448230

I logged my jumps with flysight and sent a Paralog diagram to Airtec who suggested that I should switch to the speed cypres. That was with 270 turns.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Feb 24, 2013, 5:50 PM
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Re: [matt002] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Kinda hard to believe that you can stay with a light girl flat flying.

Can you say diffrent type of XRW???

Light girl belly flying, with you carving around her.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Feb 24, 2013, 6:01 PM
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Re: [matt002] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input


matt002

Feb 24, 2013, 11:32 PM
Post #6 of 23 (3404 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Kinda hard to believe that you can stay with a light girl flat flying.

Can you say diffrent type of XRW???

Light girl belly flying, with you carving around her.

The peak speeds can't be maintained for more than a second or so, they occur when you tighten up a large rotation into a tight throw, gives a very vertical pitch that can't be held for long.

Also, I don't know how much faith I would put in the actual numbers, they are more of a guide or power meter I would think. My viso is leg strap mounted although when wrist mounted the numbers come out the same.
It would be interesting to see what the numbers look like when the viso packed into the rig some how.


RichLees

Feb 25, 2013, 2:09 PM
Post #7 of 23 (3237 views)
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Re: [matt002] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I got 41.7m/s repeatedly on an Airtech datalogger (same kit as the Cypres) and 95mph on a pair of Visos. ie they all gave the same answer within a couple of percent.
I did some rough sums to check the time, speed and acceleration made some sense and they weren't daft. vertical acceleration of 0.8g for much of the dive and higher vertical deceleration as you slingshot into the swoop.
when extra aggressive, I got 105mph, but I was on a monstrously whopping huge 103 Tongue


Jiggs  (F 745)

Feb 27, 2013, 3:49 AM
Post #8 of 23 (3039 views)
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Re: [RichLees] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry guys - think you guys are a little off with your speeds.

On a 69 at 3.8 I did manage to get upto 106mph vertical. Jay did some similar test a while back and got around the same sort of numbers.

Ohh and according to my neptune I have been over 200mph - lol


matt002

Feb 27, 2013, 4:03 AM
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Re: [Jiggs] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Was that measured from the ground with a radar?
I don't put any faith in the actual mph reading from a viso or Neptune, just that it measures and calculates speed based on barometric pressure, the same way as the AAD does so its more relevant in the context of aad fires than max performance.


ayevee8toryear

Feb 27, 2013, 12:56 PM
Post #10 of 23 (2945 views)
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Re: [Jiggs] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Then it is only a matter of time before a speed cypres fire occurs on landing...?

Is there any point in having an AAD if the speeds reached during approach are on par with free fall...? I am an aircraft pilot so not up with the play here but this stuff is really interesting.


(This post was edited by ayevee8toryear on Feb 27, 2013, 1:00 PM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 27, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #11 of 23 (2931 views)
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Re: [ayevee8toryear] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

When I jump my 67 I don't turn on even my speed cypres.


RichLees

Mar 1, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #12 of 23 (2814 views)
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Re: [ayevee8toryear] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

my peak speed occurs around 200feet which is well below the minimum operational height of 330 feet for the Cypres Speed


ayevee8toryear

Mar 2, 2013, 10:29 AM
Post #13 of 23 (2771 views)
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Re: [RichLees] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
my peak speed occurs around 200feet which is well below the minimum operational height of 330 feet for the Cypres Speed

? They fire anywhere below 750 feet do they not?


RichLees

Mar 2, 2013, 3:12 PM
Post #14 of 23 (2710 views)
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Re: [ayevee8toryear] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Subject to reaching firing speed, the Expert protects down to 180 ft and Speed down to 330 ft


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 2, 2013, 10:06 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian- I understand most of the pro top echelon of swoopers like yourself don't jump with AADs turned on while competing, but do you have any insight as to a regular fun jumper like me that likes to lay down a little swoop after a jump and when one should switch to a Cypress speed (if jumping a Vigil or Pro Cypress) or maybe consider not turning on their cypress speed even on at all if they intend to swoop? We have known about AADs firing unintentionally and killing swoopers for awhile and I am trying to understand when this should be a problem. I know Brian Germain said during an interview on Skydive Radio about wearing a device from an AAD manufacture regarding this manner but no details on data were given I believe. Should I start collecting my own data and figure this out own my own as I go or is this knowledge known and not being shared or I am simply missing the boat and can't find the data anywhere? Obviously canopy type, pilot skill, altitude density, type of turn, and a host of variables all come into play, but I figure there has to be some kind of ballpark here from either the manufactures or our community where we say hey speed model on X WL and canopy.

The more experience I get the more I think an AAD isn't a good idea. My short time in the sport I have already seen one manufacture go under. They have killed people. They have saved people too, but no one can answer my question apparently and that doesn't exactly give me much confidence.

I realize a guy on a 136 at 1.5 is probably far from firing the damn thing but no one can say who is close to firing one either and I don't want to find out the hard way.


gainer  (D 800)

Mar 3, 2013, 1:45 AM
Post #16 of 23 (2652 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I found that when i do normal jumps with a regular rig and system, ie. no rds, my speeds don't reach high enough to activate a speed cypres hence why i jump one. Remember when you do a freefall you dont pack on 16 kgs of lead combined with an rds system, dress as fast as possible and try to break the sickest swoop. Yet on dedicated swoop jumps i do, so if i jump something that extreme i would switch it off. Rather be a bit gentler on normal jumps with it switched on.


Jiggs  (F 745)

Mar 3, 2013, 5:35 AM
Post #17 of 23 (2621 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

dont exceed 76mph normal and 90 odd for speed from memory - to do this, think loadings above 2.3 and larger than 270s rotation. Also consider the density altitude that you are jumping at.

at 1.5 - don't worry

YMMV

(edit to add) - the above is for the normal cypress, not speed.


(This post was edited by Jiggs on Mar 3, 2013, 5:39 AM)


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Mar 3, 2013, 7:35 PM
Post #18 of 23 (2506 views)
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Re: Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

For what its worth, I have a speed cypres 2 and I regularly do 450's...I turn it on for every jump. I think there are probably very few people who can reach firing speeds...but everyone gets to make their own choices. I'm loading my velo at 2.4.


bofh  (D 13995)

Mar 3, 2013, 11:56 PM
Post #19 of 23 (2465 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Obviously canopy type, pilot skill, altitude density, type of turn, and a host of variables all come into play, ...


In reply to:
The more experience I get the more I think an AAD isn't a good idea. My short time in the sport I have already seen one manufacture go under. They have killed people. They have saved people too, but no one can answer my question apparently and that doesn't exactly give me much confidence.

I think you have already answered your own question with regards to why people don't want to answer you, there are just too many variables. Even if one can say that under 1.0WL, you can't activate a brand X AAD and over 4.0 its hard not to activate a brand Y AAD, what good does that information do for you if you were between those wingloadings or jumping a brand Z AAD?

If you want to know how close you are to the risk zone, make a couple of good jumps with a GPS logger and look at the peek speeds and where they are and compare it to the AADs manual. If you are still in doubt, send the graphs to the manufacturer and ask them. I'm sure there is someone at your DZ that has a flysight and can help you turn the data into a graph via one of the many programs used for that, someone with a wingsuit is a good bet.

The statistics says that an AAD lowers the risks more than it increases it so I don't see why you think it is a bad idea?

In reply to:
I realize a guy on a 136 at 1.5 is probably far from firing the damn thing but no one can say who is close to firing one either and I don't want to find out the hard way.

Have you tried asking the AAD manufacturer and what did they say?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 4, 2013, 4:13 AM
Post #20 of 23 (2424 views)
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Re: [bofh] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear you. Unfortunately no one at my DZ has a fly sight that I know of. Small Cessna DZ, no wingsuiters. I realize a 1.5 on a 136 is most likely not approaching the danger area, but I am going to be moving down to 1.7 on a 120 this season, hence my questioning to begin with. I understand there are a ton of variables at play here but I don't think that should exclude some very rough ballpark of hey Speed model "here."

The statistics can be interpreted however one wants to interpret them. I for one have have heard of them firing but not cutting loops effectively giving jumpers a reserve container lock. They have misfired in planes because a door opened. They have fired on swoopers who have exceed the parameters on hp landings. One manufacture puts out a service bulletin to check yours with a magnet to make sure there is a cutter in the damn thing because they had a major boo boo on the assembly line. One fired high on a tandem pair just before the TI was going to release the drogue. Now one fires on the packing mat supposedly from static and we better be pressing the button again before every jump to make sure the thing is working. All this and this is only my FOURTH season in the sport. I am not trying to turn this thread into "to have an AAD or not" but I have seen a whole lot of reasons to not have one and only one reason to have one (being unconscious) I might still be a baby in this sport but I have enough experience to draw my own conclusions.

Thanks to those that have contributed relevant experiences and data.

I will figure out a way to collect my own data and will post it here when I get it.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2013, 6:04 AM
Post #21 of 23 (2400 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I realize a 1.5 on a 136 is most likely not approaching the danger area, but I am going to be moving down to 1.7 on a 120 this season, hence my questioning to begin with

If it were me, I'd continue to jump with the Expert Cypres turned on until:

1) I was doing more than a 270
OR
2) My wingloading started to approach 2.4

Then, I'd upgrade to a Speed Cypres (it's a software mod that can be done on any Expert Cypres) and continue turning that one until by canopy size got sub 79 with loadings approaching 2.7 and higher, using multiple rotation turns (anything more than a 360).

At the end of the day: I turn my AAD on at every opportunity, swoop jump or not, as long as I am sure to be outside of it's normal activation parameters.

IMO you are a long way off from having to worry about firing an Expert or Speed Cypres - so while it's good to be aware of when it'll be time to reconsider this, I don't believe you are there yet.

YMMV
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 4, 2013, 6:06 AM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 5, 2013, 5:58 AM
Post #22 of 23 (2313 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Ian. As I said I realize I am far from the parameters yet, but it is good to know when I downsize to the KA 120 I will still be ok on my Vigil. I don't do more than a 270 yet and don't plan to for quite awhile. Looks like I shouldn't even need to go to the Speed yet from your experience. I am not trying to "worry" about something too far away in progression to think about, but at the same time you don't know if you don't ask the questions, and I don't want to end up killing myself from a "known issue" that would just be silly.

For shits and giggles I think I am going to borrow a radar gun from work.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 5, 2013, 6:14 AM
Post #23 of 23 (2297 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Swoop speeds/AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
when I downsize to the KA 120 I will still be ok on my Vigil

I have no idea about Vigil's firing params (btw). Check with them for sure.

Quote:
I don't want to end up killing myself from a "known issue" that would just be silly.

Agreed! Always better to ask if you aren't sure



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