Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
harness holds

 

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nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 10, 2013, 4:03 PM
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In the recent news photo of the Aussie fatality, on a belly jump, a jumper is using the 3 rings as a grip and actucally twisting it quite far.

This photo is UNRELATED to the fatality, but it got me thinking.

Does it simply not feel right and is actually safe? I would be worried about the cutaway cable being dislodged or pulled back through.


peek  (D 8884)

Feb 10, 2013, 5:17 PM
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In reply to:
In the recent news photo of the Aussie fatality, on a belly jump, a jumper is using the 3 rings as a grip and actually twisting it quite far. This photo is UNRELATED to the fatality, but it got me thinking. Does it simply not feel right and is actually safe? I would be worried about the cutaway cable being dislodged or pulled back through.

I was thinking about that a bit myself. If there was an RSL on the side being held, it could conceivably get disconnected. But otherwise I can't think of any other problem. Anyone else?


skypilotA1  (D 17101)

Feb 10, 2013, 5:44 PM
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I recently made an AFF jump as outside/reserve side instructor. I had some difficulty getting the shoulder gripper upon exit, and gripped the container at the riser cover point. The jump went well, however afterward it was pointed out to me a safety concern. If during this jump, with this grip, especially during an unstable exit...gripping the container assembly at this point may cause the reserve cable to be pulled and possibly cause a reserve deployment if the reserve cable is a little tight. Unlikely...yes...possible...yes. Just something to think about.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 10, 2013, 6:02 PM
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Dunno if it's possible to do with a grip, but have ya ever had the rings lock up against each other where it takes a little manipulating to get them laying down right during packing...?

I think that would prevent a cutaway should one be needed.


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 10, 2013, 8:00 PM
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In reply to:
Dunno if it's possible to do with a grip, but have ya ever had the rings lock up against each other where it takes a little manipulating to get them laying down right during packing...?

I think that would prevent a cutaway should one be needed.

I got my knuckles rapped when I was learning to pack tandems, because I missed that on a rig.

It's a good point to consider as IF it is possible, it could result in a broken riser or inability to cutaway.


labrys  (D 29848)

Feb 10, 2013, 9:26 PM
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Quote:
Dunno if it's possible to do with a grip, but have ya ever had the rings lock up against each other where it takes a little manipulating to get them laying down right during packing...?

I've had it happen between gear checking a student after first dressing them and gear checking them again before boarding. 10 minutes with nothing unusual going on in between. I reckon anything can cause that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 10, 2013, 10:45 PM
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In reply to:
Does it simply not feel right and is actually safe? I would be worried about the cutaway cable being dislodged or pulled back through.

Your worries are real. Doan doo dat.
rsl
reserve cable
fingers trapped
rings twisted
locking loop break/ripped stitching


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:32 AM
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Re: [nigel99] harness holds [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Please note in the photo that the jumper appears to be wearing a long-sleeve shirt and jeans on a skydive where he intended to dock with other jumpers. In that case, you need to be sure to specify where and how you want others to take grips on you.

I don't like the grip shown in the pic, for the reasons stated. I also don't like any harness grips near my handles, and don't like anything on an adjustable strap (chest or leg) as it opens the door for that adjustment to be altered mid-jump.

For those reasons I either make sure that I am the one docking on the other jumper, or that I provide them with a specific spot for taking grips.


raveninca  (B 6377)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:45 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Dunno if it's possible to do with a grip, but have ya ever had the rings lock up against each other where it takes a little manipulating to get them laying down right during packing...?

I think that would prevent a cutaway should one be needed.

I got my knuckles rapped when I was learning to pack tandems, because I missed that on a rig.

It's a good point to consider as IF it is possible, it could result in a broken riser or inability to cutaway.

I have seen this problem missed on the ground during a tandem pack job and it caused the white loop to snap during deployment causing one riser to release. Luckily the TM was able to cutaway.


shakilafridi

Feb 11, 2013, 7:21 AM
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In reply to:
Please note in the photo that the jumper appears to be wearing a long-sleeve shirt and jeans on a skydive where he intended to dock with other jumpers. In that case, you need to be sure to specify where and how you want others to take grips on you.

Whatever happened to taking wrist grips when no jumpsuit grippers are present?


Divalent  (C 40494)

Feb 11, 2013, 7:25 AM
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In reply to:
... have ya ever had the rings lock up against each other where it takes a little manipulating to get them laying down right during packing...?

Just from your description, I can't visusalize what you are refering to. From subsequent comments, it seems that it is not completely rare, so am very curious to know.

Anyone have a photo or diagram of this "locked up" state? Or a detailed verbal description?

Thx.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 11, 2013, 7:39 AM
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Quote:
Anyone have a photo or diagram of this "locked up" state? Or a detailed verbal description?

The two small rings that are attched to the risers (and the riser) gets jacked around so that they end up 'inserted' into the big ring. If they get pushed sideways when this happens, it can be tricky to get them out and back to normal. There's 'just enough' clearnace there to get them in there, and if you try to pull them out the wrong way, it will get 'stuck'.

It's temporary, and can be pulled through eventually. It's obvious when it happens because the middle ring is inside of the big rig and the riser is pointing straight out from the rig. Even a half assed gear check will reveal it.

Now if it happened in freefall, due to a bad harness grip, it would be a real problem. It may or may not clear in the course of an opening, and it probably would not release if you needed to cutaway if the opening didn't straighten it out.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 11, 2013, 8:19 AM
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WRTO the pic...

The idiot grabbing that harness like that would have been missing a large chunk of meat off his arm had it been my harness.

I'm surprised Jeff let it happen.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Feb 11, 2013, 3:46 PM
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For those who like me hadn't seen the other thread, didn't know what the hell anyone was talking about, and had to hunt around for the pic. Tongue


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Feb 11, 2013, 3:46 PM)
Attachments: 1226574599763.jpg (12.8 KB)


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:02 PM
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In reply to:

For those who like me hadn't seen the other thread, didn't know what the hell anyone was talking about, and had to hunt around for the pic. Tongue

yeah sorry, should have copied the pic.

For those who havent seen the original, the person being gripped has recently passed away in a skydiving accident and this picture is from a media article about him.

I don't like doing rw with people who dont have grippers, although I recently found that it was a good challange keeping an open palm grip on a tight freefly suit during an 8 way. i genuinely enjoyed having to 'fly' my slot to maintain good contact.


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:30 PM
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Frown

Thanks for the pic!

Think chain of events...I instantly think how is anyone going to control this student(?) if he goes unstable?? A one handed spin stop? (As an example of many possible issues, never mind the go-pro...)

So the more likely explanation is this is a four way and he grabbed whatever he could. Not a big deal, except for the stuff already mentioned...plenty of summer jumpers in T shirts and no shirts grabbing what they can...at least they are doing something they love...

(Simple soulution, no grips no AFF.)

Sorry to hear that someone suffered who was involved in this...


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:35 PM
Post #17 of 28 (2087 views)
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In reply to:
a good challange keeping an open palm grip on a tight freefly suit during an 8 way. i genuinely enjoyed having to 'fly' my slot to maintain good contact.

Good stuff Nigel.


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:57 PM
Post #18 of 28 (2080 views)
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In the interests of learning.

AFF is sometimes called 'harness hold'. I believe the instructors hold the legstrap, but where do they take the high grip?


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 12, 2013, 1:59 AM
Post #19 of 28 (2062 views)
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In reply to:
In the interests of learning.

AFF is sometimes called 'harness hold'. I believe the instructors hold the leg strap, but where do they take the high grip?

We just grab the arm gripper. I have never done an AFF jump with a suit with no arm gripper. Occasionally The arm gripper is hidden on exit due to the student's position in the door. When that occurs, I just take the harness at the shoulder. It's above the 3 ring so it's no issue.


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 12, 2013, 5:12 AM
Post #20 of 28 (2021 views)
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Re: [hookitt] harness holds [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In the interests of learning.

AFF is sometimes called 'harness hold'. I believe the instructors hold the leg strap, but where do they take the high grip?

We just grab the arm gripper. I have never done an AFF jump with a suit with no arm gripper. Occasionally The arm gripper is hidden on exit due to the student's position in the door. When that occurs, I just take the harness at the shoulder. It's above the 3 ring so it's no issue.

+1, either a gripper or the shoulder harness in the yoke for me.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 12, 2013, 6:05 PM
Post #21 of 28 (1892 views)
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Re: [nigel99] harness holds [In reply to] Can't Post

Nigel,
These two have it right.

Remember those orange jumpsuits?
LaughLaughLaugh


Oh, and "Harness Hold" describes the teaching methods that involve an instructor physically holding onto a student...be it AFF, APF, AFP...or any other TLA.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 12, 2013, 6:08 PM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 14, 2013, 12:07 PM
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Re: [raveninca] harness holds [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Dunno if it's possible to do with a grip, but have ya ever had the rings lock up against each other where it takes a little manipulating to get them laying down right during packing...?

I think that would prevent a cutaway should one be needed.

I got my knuckles rapped when I was learning to pack tandems, because I missed that on a rig.

It's a good point to consider as IF it is possible, it could result in a broken riser or inability to cutaway.

I have seen this problem missed on the ground during a tandem pack job and it caused the white loop to snap during deployment causing one riser to release. Luckily the TM was able to cutaway.

I know of a great TM that missed this error. White loop broke on the turn to final. Spun in under 1/2 canopy. Student was (relatively) OK, but TM is now in a wheel chair. Its a simple mistake that he now lives with every day of his life.

This is the type of thing EVERYONE on the plane should have caught. Look the each other's gear, question what you see.

JW


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 14, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Re: [fcajump] harness holds [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is the type of thing EVERYONE on the plane should have caught. Look the each other's gear, question what you see.
True confession, I sat on a plane with a 3 ring like that on a tandem rig. Jumper across the aisle caught it. It's now part of my self check routine. Lesson learned. Blush


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 14, 2013, 2:29 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
This is the type of thing EVERYONE on the plane should have caught. Look the each other's gear, question what you see.
True confession, I sat on a plane with a 3 ring like that on a tandem rig. Jumper across the aisle caught it. It's now part of my self check routine. Lesson learned. Blush

As a new Strong TI, I had someone point out the same thing when I was waiting to walk out... Eye openner as to how easy it is to get that on a Tandem rig (now sure why... I've rarely seen it on a non-tandem rig...)

JW


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 14, 2013, 3:54 PM
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Re: [fcajump] harness holds [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
This is the type of thing EVERYONE on the plane should have caught. Look the each other's gear, question what you see.
True confession, I sat on a plane with a 3 ring like that on a tandem rig. Jumper across the aisle caught it. It's now part of my self check routine. Lesson learned. Blush

As a new Strong TI, I had someone point out the same thing
when I was waiting to walk out... Eye openner as to how easy it is to get that on a Tandem rig (now sure why... I've rarely seen it on a non-tandem rig...)

JW

I was told that it tends to occur when the canopy lands in front of you.

I also assume mini rings are slightly less susceptible to it.


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