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New PF V-range?

 

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jakee  (C License)

Feb 7, 2013, 1:19 PM
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New PF V-range? Can't Post

So Jarno has in flight photos of the new Viper and Jokke has his prototype V5... anyone have any details? Release dates?

I've almost persuaded myself to put in an order with squirrel to replace my V3 but if Phoenix-Fly's new toys are on the horizon...Smile


mccordia  (D 94775)

Feb 7, 2013, 1:46 PM
Post #2 of 64 (12229 views)
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Re: [jakee] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

An official release for the new V's big borther is coming up soon.
Though we have arrived at what we believe is a final prototype, we always have a few months of additional testing before its available to the public.

In design, the suit resembles the Vampire a lot. Agility, speed and ease of flying have been our main focus, and the reason we choose the V(5) as a starting point in the design. More detailed overviews on the actual improvements and new features of these suits will soon emerge.

But the way things look, templates for various sizes will soon be made and we'll roll out with an official release on that suit and the 'other' new V.
If you are coming to Puerto Rico coming week, I will have the suit with me for those wanting to see.

Official dates for release I cant give you yet, but you'll probably see the suits on the website before all the snow is gone so stay tuned...


hjumper33  (Student)

Feb 7, 2013, 3:38 PM
Post #3 of 64 (12172 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

From pictures I have seen, the viper looks a lot like an apache with squirrel vents. What are the differences?


mccordia  (D 94775)

Feb 7, 2013, 4:30 PM
Post #4 of 64 (12153 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Apache in that light looks a lot like the CCPF (a fun big wing experiment we did at PF over 4 years ago, pic pic), almost 2 years prior to the creation of the suits you mention. Who copied who? Or was there copying involved? I think the answer to both questions is a lot simpler.

When looking at the basic outline of any suit (be it the current big suits from Intrudair, S-Fly, PF, Tony or Squirrel) its easy to point and say 'copy'.
But give a 5 year old a picture of Patrick DeGuyardon's (in comparison) tiny wingsuit, and tell them to 'make it bigger' and you'll end up with the same rough outline most big suits sport these days. There are only so many (or should I say few) ways you can make armwings and legwings bigger. In the end, most 'big wings' will end up with roughly the same outline/shape. Is that copying or simply the limits of the human body as a basic frame to build around?

In terms of inlet design, they are not much different from what we've had on all previous versions of the suits, be it for some small changes.

Its the subtle differences in the suit that in the end determine handling, inflation, steering and more. With the new V's we think we have some new changes in design that are a great improvement/addition to the previous products we've released.

Exactly how these new suits vary from whats out there, we'll detail on the website once we go towards official release.


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 7, 2013, 5:13 PM
Post #5 of 64 (12125 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

The inflation on the new V's is beautiful and very impressive.
Me likey.
Me want new suit.
Cool


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 AM
Post #6 of 64 (12032 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are only so many (or should I say few) ways you can make armwings and legwings bigger. .
and then comes Giselle Laugh


martin245

Feb 8, 2013, 2:40 AM
Post #7 of 64 (11997 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From pictures I have seen, the viper looks a lot like an apache with squirrel vents. What are the differences?

Frankly, when I saw images of the new Squirrel suit, the Colugo, it looked like an Apache-clone to me.

We're coming to a point where latest suits simply have a similar design. The varieties are in the details, and as long as the customer benefits from it, it's fine.

Martin

P.S.: My spelling sucks...


(This post was edited by martin245 on Feb 8, 2013, 3:40 AM)


michalm21  (Student)

Feb 8, 2013, 4:09 AM
Post #8 of 64 (11959 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

but didn't that experiment of pf simply copied tony's new then design that become the i/t/r/s/x-bird? except it was to show the ridiculousness of the size of tony suits?
it was revolutionary and tony was first on the market and you simply cannot deny that.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:32 AM
Post #9 of 64 (11939 views)
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Re: [michalm21] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think people's ideas about wingsuit design and history tend to vary a bit per person. And not always based on accurate knowledge, but more based on personal oppinion.

There will always be some influence across the market and various brands. But it seems like a bit of a waste of time to keep pushing every thread for PF, Sfly, Tony or Squirrel into a comparison game where people scream which suit influenced what.


hjumper33  (Student)

Feb 8, 2013, 12:08 PM
Post #10 of 64 (11811 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ps my comment was just to state the obvious. I wanted the guys in the know to tell the differences which I'm sure are man. I know squirrel has little tweaks vent changes, ect that are unique, just wondering what that is for this suit?


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:08 PM
Post #11 of 64 (11719 views)
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Re: [michalm21] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but didn't that experiment of pf simply copied tony's new then design that become the i/t/r/s/x-bird? except it was to show the ridiculousness of the size of tony suits?
it was revolutionary and tony was first on the market and you simply cannot deny that.

I think you've missed the point of Jarno's post - there's only a limited amount of distinctive shapes possible for this sort of purpose. Eventually, at the larger end, they're all going to look very similar.

I still remember when I first discovered wingsuits (way before I was able to jump one) and this forum; back then it seemed that the two most well-known manufacturers were PF and Birdman (and the GoPro HD didn't exist).
I don't recall people trying to make a pissing contest out of the fact that a Raptor looked like a Ghost or that a Blade looked like a Vampire. Before the X-Bird turned up the flying carpet was the Stealth2 - and so what?
It was almost like people were more concerned with how much fun they could have jumping them rather than who thought of what first!

Now we see other manufacturers coming out, e.g. Aliensuits, Squirrel, and if you only pay attention to the shadow they make on the ground then they do seem very similar.

Just a thought, can anyone here aside from Giselle come up with a design for a wingsuit with the largest surface area possible, that doesn't bear any resemblance to an X-Bird/Venom/G12/Colugo/Apache ?

I don't know about anyone else but the biggest problem I have right now is that I don't have enough money to buy one of every model from every manufacturer.


nickfrey

Feb 8, 2013, 9:44 PM
Post #12 of 64 (11674 views)
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Re: [johnmatrix] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course the shadows are going to be the same... The differences are going to be airfoil shape, thickness of wings, inlet feeding, cross-bracing/stability of shape, changes in leading edge design and wing sweep just to name a few. All of which will change the characteristics of flight substantially. Surface area isn't everything, it just makes you fall slower and it's not what makes you fly. Lift and drag are, changing the thickness and taper of the airfoil is just as important, as are better ways to help the suit maintain that shape and reduce drag.

Performance changes are going to be from the things not evident in a photograph of the suit on the ground, and will still be difficult to visualize even in flight. They will be very subtle changes and gains will come in small increments.

Also, Squirrel looks to be concentrating on some safety improvements they felt were lacking from other designers, perhaps because PF and TS were too busy trying to keep up with production and demand for ever increasing surface area. Like better inlet feeding and pressurization stability.

The more they copy each other and add their own ideas and improvements the better it is for us. I would love to see all three take the same suit as a base and go from there.


Shredex

Feb 8, 2013, 10:44 PM
Post #13 of 64 (11655 views)
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Re: [nickfrey] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's how it should be. The suits would evolve much faster if that were the case.

I was actually speaking to Fidel Mach at the last boogie and he showed me a really sweet design that makes you slap yourself and say "Why didn't I think of that!"
Hopefully the prototypes work out. If they do, it's a huge boost to wingsuit safety.


splat123  (C License)

Feb 9, 2013, 1:01 AM
Post #14 of 64 (11611 views)
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Re: [Shredex] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Waiting for rush of cheap V4's in the classifieds Wink


flite  (F License)

Feb 9, 2013, 7:37 AM
Post #15 of 64 (11530 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious if the new V's will be using a solid cross ported internal rib structure as compared to the mesh ones used on the V4 ?


Waldschrat

Feb 9, 2013, 5:38 PM
Post #16 of 64 (11403 views)
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Re: [jakee] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please let me ask did PF Work on New Materials that are to thin this, making less drag force in flight also? Or be all this suits from the same Material? (also the last years?)


BenediktDE

Feb 10, 2013, 7:01 PM
Post #17 of 64 (11141 views)
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Re: [Waldschrat] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

@Waldschrat: http://www.phoenix-fly.com/products/order_faq there is a new Cameroon Ultra Light fabric mentinoned. Is this what you are looking for?


MrCat  (C License)

Feb 12, 2013, 6:23 AM
Post #18 of 64 (10920 views)
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Re: [BenediktDE] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just heard from the g/f. My V5 is at home... Can't wait to see it :)


jakee  (C License)

Feb 12, 2013, 11:24 AM
Post #19 of 64 (10811 views)
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Re: [MrCat] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

You must have some nice friends!

Please feel free to put up some photo's and tell us all about itWink


MrCat  (C License)

Feb 12, 2013, 12:40 PM
Post #20 of 64 (10775 views)
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Re: [jakee] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

The short version of a long story - I ordered a v4 a while ago for my trip to empuria this week, lead times should have had the suit at home at the start of Jan, at start of Jan PF thought it would be start of feb, last week contacted PF and was told it would another 4 weeks.

Asked if they could sort anything out and Robbie offered to sell me one of the V5 prototypes he flew in Mountain Trails.

Who would say "No" to that ?

Awesome service from PF :)

Out to Empuria on Thursday so hopefully I'll be jumping it next week.

p.s. the air scoops in front of the shoulders look big enough to swallow small birds...


(This post was edited by MrCat on Feb 12, 2013, 12:42 PM)
Attachments: vp5_1024.jpg (44.1 KB)
  vp5_1024_sully.jpg (49.1 KB)


murf62

Feb 12, 2013, 12:55 PM
Post #21 of 64 (10761 views)
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Re: [MrCat] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, you do actually look like a cat too. Suit looks a little big for you though. ;) If you don't like, I will still sell you my V3 if you beg me.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 9, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #22 of 64 (10009 views)
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New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Video


robinheid  (D 5533)

Mar 20, 2013, 5:08 PM
Post #23 of 64 (9107 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Apache in that light looks a lot like the CCPF (a fun big wing experiment we did at PF over 4 years ago, pic pic), almost 2 years prior to the creation of the suits you mention. Who copied who? Or was there copying involved? I think the answer to both questions is a lot simpler.

When looking at the basic outline of any suit (be it the current big suits from Intrudair, S-Fly, PF, Tony or Squirrel) its easy to point and say 'copy'.
But give a 5 year old a picture of Patrick DeGuyardon's (in comparison) tiny wingsuit, and tell them to 'make it bigger' and you'll end up with the same rough outline most big suits sport these days. There are only so many (or should I say few) ways you can make armwings and legwings bigger. In the end, most 'big wings' will end up with roughly the same outline/shape. Is that copying or simply the limits of the human body as a basic frame to build around?

In terms of inlet design, they are not much different from what we've had on all previous versions of the suits, be it for some small changes.

Its the subtle differences in the suit that in the end determine handling, inflation, steering and more. With the new V's we think we have some new changes in design that are a great improvement/addition to the previous products we've released.

Exactly how these new suits vary from whats out there, we'll detail on the website once we go towards official release.

This is very well stated and of course your basic premise is reflected in high-performance aircraft and automobile design too; there is pretty much one optimal shape to accomplish shared design goals so naturally things are going to look generally the same and it's pretty silly to say who copied who because everyone is copying God or the Goddess or Nature or at the very least applying Physics 101 in a similar way.

And yes, the differences and distinctions lie in the details and combinations thereof, and that is where the real action is happening and I gotta tell you, all the jostling and tussling and smack talking inclusive, everybody out there who's going for it is contributing to the development of human flight on a scale undreamed of even a few decades ago - and I appreciate and applaud all of you for your work and drive and dedication.

And competitive spirit. Really, wanting to build a better suit is the way everybody gets better, the way we all fly farther, faster, with more precision and reliability and durability and everything else.

Sooooo, good on all of you out there designing them, building them, and/or flying them, and there's hardly a day that goes by that I don't think about how proud Carl and Patrick have to be as they look down, up or around at their heirs in the air -- and how pissed off they are that they aren't still around to play with all the new toys themselves.

Cool
44


DontfallOff  (Student)

Apr 3, 2013, 4:47 AM
Post #24 of 64 (8549 views)
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Re: [mccordia] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any new pics of the V's yet... there are a few being flown, but almost no pics in circulation...


piisfish

Apr 3, 2013, 5:51 AM
Post #25 of 64 (8517 views)
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Re: [DontfallOff] New PF V-range? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any new pics of the V's yet... there are a few being flown, but almost no pics in circulation...
you need faster cameras to get decent pictures Laugh


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