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Cutaway Rig Designs

 

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Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Feb 1, 2013, 7:49 AM
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Cutaway Rig Designs Can't Post

Morning everyone,

I did a search and came up with surprising very little on this topic. I read 2 threads that were helpful, but not any more than the knowledge I already have.

I'm looking to setup a cutaway rig, and the only design I can come up with that is relatively feasible and seems that it may be a decent option is as follows:

Buy an airworthy container, cut off the main and reserve trays, leaving only the harness/3 rings and cutaway mechanisms. Wear this harness UNDER my normal gear, with the 3 rings and canopy connected outside of my normal harness. The 2nd main would be deployed from a belly mounted (or held) d-bag via a standard pilot chute. Exit on my back, deploy PC, fly until bored, cutaway 2nd main, deploy standard main.

I'm wondering if anyone is willing to share their insight, any experiences, things to watch for etc.

FWIW, I am a Rigger in Canada (equivalent to senior rigger, not master). I intend to do this for any number of reasons. I'd like to jump a blown up canopy, see how it flies, or jump a smaller canopy, hook a canopy up backwards. Basically just learn, try, play, experience etc.

Any info is greatly appreciated as I would like to do this as safely as possible given the added risk of doing this in the first place. I'm also curious about legalities of wearing a second harness in this fashion.

Thank you!


indyz  (D 28525)

Feb 1, 2013, 8:37 AM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

If you know somebody with a harness machine it would be cheaper and easier to build the harness part from scratch. The construction is pretty simple and is a great learning experience if you ever want to be a master rigger.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 1, 2013, 9:50 AM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen 2 sets of mini-riser hooked up to one standard (large) harness ring...it's supposed to work fine though I've never tried it.

You could always add a set of D rings to the existing harness and clip the wart there...run the risers with a 3ring to that connection point...IF legal that is. Wink


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 1, 2013, 10:48 AM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Just briefly for now:

- I use the 2nd harness method.
I saved parts of the old main container to help create the belly container that is just tied on, with a loop design that makes it easier to change loop lengths a lot.
The new cutaway handle for canopy #3, I made that a big and distinctive loop in a different colour than usual!

- I like the idea of a container for the canopy. Some DZ's are cool, but especially at DZ's with low tail aircraft, DZOs may not want you stepping out with a bag in your hands...

- If using 2 harnesses, watch for stunts that have 2 canopies out and pulling in opposite directions - that has choked someone unconscious

- Two mini rings in the normal big main ring - used by the Strong Tridem - a few small pics on dz.com. (Not sure if some of the big military main rings are any larger at all than our usual main rings. Marginally or not at all?)

- One thing that has been done is main risers that have a set of rings off of them. Golden Knights have used that, in addition to modified container. But then one gets more into issues of having to deploy one canopy before the other and possibly having to chop in a particular sequence. (Rob Harris accident for example).

- How to hang extra big rings off a harness? We used to just put them over the MLW's and accept stripping handles etc if the tersh were used. But even CSPA rules don't allow that now. There are separable rings for clipping belly mounts on. As for actual main rings for 3 ring risers, for that one needs the rare RW-6's. I'm hanging onto my 2 sets!

- Could use a separable link behind the harness ring, with webbing to a 3 ring coming forward out the slot in the harness ring. May be tight depending on webbing used, but I've got pics of that sort of thing. (Jerry Baumchen and "Slots" have posted variations on that theme) I do like this idea but haven't tried it.

- Supposedly one might get a separable main ring in the same harness loop as the normal main ring, but usually the loop on the harness is too tight for that?? It would work if one had a custom harness.

- There is the occasional CRW harness etc that has an extra loop for a separable ring at the bottom of the heavy MLW junction for the harness 3ring. So there's a loop at each end of the confluence wrap. I have that on some BASE gear too, for attaching a belly mount when going from a plane. But this doesn't work for normal unmodified gear.

That's a bunch of quick ideas. But I don't have a handle on how good or common each of the approaches is.

Yay Canada, no TSO rules, more shit to jump!


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Feb 1, 2013, 12:19 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input guys,

I seem to think that the "2 mini rings on a standard big ring" would lead to issues in cutting away. IE: if one ring tucked under the other canopy, couldn't cut away, or only half cut away. It seems like added risk to me.

The second harness seems like the cleanest, least risky option, even over the Tridem system or other 3 rig systems. Those must be deployed in sequence, have special cutaway configurations etc. Yes, a 2 out situation could turn badly very quickly, but that seems terribly unlikely unless it was intentional (which is what I understand happened on the jump you referred to: intentional with unexpected results.). I can't forsee many scenarios that would result in a belly deployed canopy, to cause the PC in the BOC to deploy resulting in 2 out.

The part that I'm stuck on right now is the legalities of it. Apparently, the CAR's (and FAR's) mention a "single harness". I am under the impression that those are referring to a tandem harness, and preventing the use of BASE gear out of an aircraft.

Here's the Canadian Reg:
Subparagraph 623.38(D)(2)(a) requires that each parachutist wear a single harness dual parachute pack, having at least one main parachute and one approved reserve parachute when conducting a parachute descent over or into a built-up area or over or into an open-air assembly of persons.

That can be read a few different ways, but the way I read it is that I will be wearing a single harness, dual parachute system, except I will have a second harness as well. I think the reg is to deal with Tandems (dual harness, dual canopy), and restrict base rigs (single harness, single canopy). I don't want o get the pilot in crap if something bad does go wrong, but I'd like to still see if this is at all possible.

Thanks


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 1, 2013, 12:47 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Note Chris that's ONLY for "real demos", the ones over or into a city or crowd, where an EJR is needed. That's in the section on SFOC's for demos, airshows, etc, I think.

Not required for any other jumping.(I think tandem demos are now legal in canada, but I haven't checked the wording -- it may be a hard to find CAR Exemption that allows dual harnesses.)

The Canadian air regs say very little about how you jump out of planes. It is more about airspace rules.

(One thing I'm not sure about is whether a DZ might have to get an SFOC due to the airspace they are in, and thus have to comply with the stuff you mentioned. It gets tricky. Not sure if dz's just have Memorandums of Understanding with local ATC, which I've seen, or if they ever actually need an SFOC.)

BASE gear with one canopy, no TSO, from a plane, is legal in Canada (although not by CSPA rules at places or events under their jurisdiction).


(This post was edited by pchapman on Feb 1, 2013, 12:47 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 1, 2013, 3:01 PM
Post #7 of 32 (3225 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've seen 2 sets of mini-riser hooked up to one standard (large) harness ring...it's supposed to work fine though I've never tried it.

You could always add a set of D rings to the existing harness and clip the wart there...run the risers with a 3ring to that connection point...IF legal that is. Wink


I have a military T-10 harness with a parapack container that clips on to it and a pouch on it (not on the bottom though) for the PC. Of course, it also has Capewells. Cool


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Feb 1, 2013, 3:38 PM
Post #8 of 32 (3213 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumpshack modified a few of my rigs with an extra loop in the webbing right below the 'real' 3 ring. I put a separable d-ring in there. I have a simple soft-housing setup which runs from the 2nd 3-rings to a cutaway handle that is on the chest strap. I exit facing the tail with the first main in a d-bag and toss the pilot chute and launch the bag straight out. I've probably done a hundred jumps like this and it works well.


peek  (D 8884)

Feb 1, 2013, 4:42 PM
Post #9 of 32 (3181 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Buy an airworthy container, cut off the main and reserve trays, leaving only the harness/3 rings and cutaway mechanisms. Wear this harness UNDER my normal gear, with the 3 rings and canopy connected outside of my normal harness. The 2nd main would be deployed from a belly mounted (or held) d-bag via a standard pilot chute. Exit on my back, deploy PC, fly until bored, cutaway 2nd main, deploy standard main.

Switch that around a bit:

Buy nearly any harness/container, cut off the main and reserve trays, leaving only the harness/3 rings and cutaway mechanisms. Wear this harness UNDER my normal gear, with the 3 rings and canopy connected outside of my normal harness. The 1st parachute would be deployed from a belly mounted (or held) d-bag via a standard pilot chute. Exit on my back, deploy PC, fly until bored, cutaway 1st parachute, deploy standard main.

When you do that, you are wearing your normal rig, which should satisfy anyone with the legalities.

The first (cutaway) canopy is connected to an extra harness which is not even needed to be legal.

I made my intentional cutaway rig like this except the extra harness was from old "conventional" gear that had a harness with shot and a half releases and (used to have) separate main and reserve containers.

Can be seen in operation here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i16HryVyRaI


(This post was edited by peek on Feb 1, 2013, 4:50 PM)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Feb 1, 2013, 4:47 PM
Post #10 of 32 (3177 views)
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Re: [peek] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!

The airworthy bit was in regards to buying an airworthy harness...I wouldn't care what the containers condition is.

Now I've just got to locate an older container for cheap and get this all together. Anyone have a source of crappy containers or willing to part with an old one from the back of a closet for cheap?

Thanks everyone.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 1, 2013, 6:22 PM
Post #11 of 32 (3148 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Wear this harness UNDER my normal gear, with the 3 rings and canopy connected outside of my normal harness.

Oh yeah, just noticed -- I have the 2nd harness risers connected INSIDE my regular harness. Seems to be more natural.

See attached picture of a buddy hamming it up, wearing my cutaway harness and a regular rig before his first intentional.

The 2nd harness cutaway is a white loop thats hard to see against his jumpsuit (photo bit blurry too). The risers down to the belly container can be tucked away a little behind velcro wraps on the 2nd harness MLW's, instead of leaving them free. But I'm usually just doing short delays on my back so it isn't an issue.

The "belly" container hangs pretty low, but that's OK as then one's regular handles aren't impeded. One could do nicer attachment method, but I just tie one side on to my harness at 2 points on one side, put everything on, and get someone to help me by tying the other side on. No load on the container anyway.

Because the belly container uses 3 flaps from the old main container, it automatically has a left pull BOC!

The top corner edges of the belly container velcro shut, so the risers can pull out between the top and side flaps.

My belly container has fit everything from a 210 to a 37 to a round to a triangular. Smile
Attachments: CIMG2835cr buddy wearing pchapman's cutaway harness.JPG (260 KB)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 1, 2013, 10:25 PM
Post #12 of 32 (3100 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumpshack modified a few of my rigs with an extra loop in the webbing right below the 'real' 3 ring. I put a separable d-ring in there. I have a simple soft-housing setup which runs from the 2nd 3-rings to a cutaway handle that is on the chest strap. I exit facing the tail with the first main in a d-bag and toss the pilot chute and launch the bag straight out. I've probably done a hundred jumps like this and it works well.

Yup - my rig is made that way as well, in fact it has side connect point for QE / hold down straps too.

I just leave the separable D rings in place, 1st pic is the loop they go through, that's inside the MLW.


http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=80358;

http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=80356;

http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=80357;


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 2, 2013, 4:25 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...

The part that I'm stuck on right now is the legalities of it. Apparently, the CAR's (and FAR's) mention a "single harness". I am under the impression that those are referring to a tandem harness ...

Here's the Canadian Reg:
Subparagraph 623.38(D)(2)(a) requires that each parachutist wear a single harness dual parachute pack, having at least one main parachute and one approved reserve parachute...

.... I think the reg is to deal with Tandems (dual harness, dual canopy), and restrict base rigs (single harness, single canopy). ...

...........................................................................

That FAR/CAR was written decades before modern tandem was invented (Strong et.al. 1983).
Think 1930s ...
By then, numerous "show" jumpers" (e.g. Larsen 1888) had concluded that any more than one harness was too complicated.
Keep in mind the recent incident in Ontario, where some-one was choked unconscious by two canopies and two harnesses pulling in different directions.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 2, 2013, 4:33 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... CAR's (and FAR's) mention a "single harness"... and preventing the use of BASE gear out of an aircraft.

...........................................................................

The primary disadvantage of BASE gear is that it does on include "an approved reserve parachute."

To satisfy that CAR, many BASE jumpers have clipped approved chest-type reserves to their MLWs. Once additional webbing loops have been sewn on (ask your local Master Rigger), it is easy to screw on a set of RW-6 rings or several different types MIL SPEC D-rings.
I have helped a few aspiring TIs do intentional cutawys with extra chest-mounted reserves.
See Jump Shack's BASER for details.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 2, 2013, 4:44 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...

- Two mini rings in the normal big main ring - used by the Strong Tridem ... (Not sure if some of the big military main rings are any larger at all than our usual main rings. Marginally or not at all?...

.........................................................................

I have seen two mini-rings on standard-sized harness rings several times, dating back to 1987.
No big deal, considering the wide margins of error. Consider that many tandems (Strong, Vector 1, Vector 2,etc.) use mini-risers as drogue anchors, but sew RW-0 rings on the bottom of their drogue bridles.

Simple, round RW-0 rings are the same size as RW-1 (first pattern of slotted harness ring), RW-6 (screw-in harness ring) and RW-10 (current production large harness ring).
If you are referring to military RW-9 harness rings ... they are too thick to be compatible with any civilian risers.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Feb 3, 2013, 4:55 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Rob,

What made you change your mind on the legalities of this?

Here's a post you made in 2006 indicating that many people do exactly this, and you also indicate that it is perfectly legal:

Quote:
Most old-school jumpers just clip on an old chest-mounted reserve when doing intentional cutaways. If they cannot sew extra D-rings on their existing harness ,some of them even wear a second harness under their regular harness. The configuration is bulky and awkward, but it is legal. They look like they are pregnant or "shop-lifting water melons", but at least they are being cautious.

Found here: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2164905#2164905

Also, the jumper you referred to who was choked is completely irrelevant to this discussion. An intentional 2 out using 2 rigs is very different than what I am proposing. Can it happen? Of course, but I firmly believe that it is terribly unlikely considering the deployment handle for my main will be on he complete opposite side of my body.

All this to say that I've spoken with several people, including jump pilots and the word coming back is that as long as I meet those specifications ("at least" one harness, main + reserve) they have no issues with it. Of course, when it comes jump day, it'll be up to the S&TA to make the call along with the pilot. That can go either way at their discretion and I accept that.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 4, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Rob,

What made you change your mind on the legalities of this?

... the jumper you referred to who was choked ...

Bottom line: the easy way is to sew an extra set of D-Rings onto your MLWs.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Feb 4, 2013, 1:06 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

I completely agree, but here's why I think the second rig method is "safer".

Sewing another D-Ring onto my harness is permanent (well, relatively). That means, every single jump I do after that point, I have extra hardware attached to my rig. One more thing to go wrong, one more thing to be attentive to.

With the harness, it's only there on jumps when I expect to perform something with it, and will not impact me on any other jumps. To me, as the majority of my jumps will be done without this, I'd prefer not to have permanent remnants on my daily use rig(s).


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Feb 4, 2013, 5:55 PM
Post #19 of 32 (2687 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Use the separable d-rings that Paragear sells. The loop to insert them through is permanent, but you can just take the d-rings out when not doing intentional cutaways. That's how my rigs are set up.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Feb 4, 2013, 6:46 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

I built one almost exactly as you described.

The one difference is that I put the cutaway for the first main on the chest strap of the second harness.

I also static lined the first main, but could have gone hand held direct bag.

This setup works great!! (at least for me it did)
Attachments: cutaway rig.jpg (33.3 KB)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 4, 2013, 8:12 PM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Use the separable d-rings that Paragear sells.

The only ones I've seen are ones that look appropriate for hooking on a typical belly mount reserve with snaps, the 101407's.

But given their small size and more importantly shape with sharp corners, one wouldn't put a cutaway canopy on them with 3 rings. (Right?)

For that one needs the rare RW-6s.

Maybe one could use a separable link (MS22002-1) to hook through a webbing loop sewn on a harness and have a short webbing link from that to a non-separable base 3-ring? Not sure if the size of the slot in the link will be big enough, depending on where it is hooked into a harness, but it may work.
Attachments: separable d-ring ParaGear 101407.jpg (37.5 KB)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Feb 5, 2013, 5:32 AM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

KISS.

Add D rings to harness. Attach belly wart reserve. Done.

Another option requiring more sewing and engineering fun would be to add an additional main container, stacking the BOCs. Modify the main risers with a 2nd 3 ring set up; attach first main to new 3 ring and set up separate cutaway for it (this way you can cutaway both mains with one handle should you need to).


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Feb 5, 2013, 5:40 AM
Post #23 of 32 (2605 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sewing another D-Ring onto my harness is permanent (well, relatively). That means, every single jump I do after that point, I have extra hardware attached to my rig. One more thing to go wrong, one more thing to be attentive to.

So why not build an intentional cutaway specific rig? If you can afford the container to tear apart for the harness, you can probably afford a cheap used reserve to put in it. Swapping the mains out is easy.

You can even make a few bucks with it - lots of jumpers would love to do an intentional cutaway.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 5, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #24 of 32 (2554 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
KISS.

Add D rings to harness. Attach belly wart reserve. Done.

In reply to:

This might be a good place to ad:

Just attaching D's to a harness is something that needs to be given some thought.

Mine has webbing sewed to the inside of the MLW by the manufacturer during initial construction, the removable D rings are slipped through that loop and tightened down...I just leave them on.

My rig also has side rings for the hold-down QE snaps featured on belly-wart reserves, anyone who's ever jumped with a wart on front without securing it down from the pivot point D rings knows why that's an advisable thing to do.

A face full of container at terminal stings a bit, and it covers the handles.

I've seen jury rigged set-ups that were not given a lotta thought as in - the separable D rings were simply attached to the MLW.

DON'T DO THAT!

The rings will slide up & down the MLW rather freely which could and has caused problems when deploying a canopy from there. The whole mess can slide UP the MLW covering and/or damaging the handles as well as tearing the chest strap stitching.

Be aware that when your sport harness was designed & TSO'd it was never meant to have an opening shock force transferred to the front of the harness in that way.

Who's to say it will stay together? Wink

When mine was set up by the manufacturer MY initial request was merely to have an attachment point for demo gear...They felt having the rings there in that way might sometime down the road cause another owner of that rig to think it was okay for a reserve to be put there...so they over designed it to take that kind of force.

Mine can & has been used that way...but the whole harness gets a complete inspection after every time.

That's the reason many people use an old harness under the regular rig to attach another canopy...it's cheap insurance.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 5, 2013, 10:24 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 5, 2013, 9:40 AM
Post #25 of 32 (2554 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Cutaway Rig Designs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
KISS.

Add D rings to harness. Attach belly wart reserve. Done.

Don't think that would be legal, if you're using the belly wart as the reserve.


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