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Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ?

 

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Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 28, 2013, 1:38 PM
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Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? Can't Post

Just this past year I've put together a software/hardware package that allows for paperless waivers of liability.

Here are some pictures of the product in action:

https://picasaweb.google.com/...ealDropzoneInAction#

I just recently heard about another dropzone using another paperless waiver system, and it made me wonder: How many dropzones are doing this now?

Does your local dropzone have a paperless kiosk system? We've already saved 160,000 sheets of paper at Skydive Hawaii. At 20lbs a ream, that's 3 metric tons of paper. (which no longer needs to be stored for 7 years).

What other dropzones are using a paperless waiver system?


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 3:31 PM
Post #2 of 38 (3155 views)
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting.

How do you capture a signature?

Does the legal system accept these electronic documents as true and correct when a lawsuit gets filed?

Since electronic documents are so easily altered, it seems there might be a reluctance to accept them in legal proceedings...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 28, 2013, 3:59 PM
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Re: [tunde] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I correctly understand some of what I've recently read, signatures on a conductive pad are actually more viable than a fingerprint (in terms of legality), because the velocity, speed, and pressure points are recorded, not just the signature.
http://www.crypto-sign.com/technology_overview.php (one of the systems I've looked at)

Signatures can be played back as if they were being re-signed, cannot be forged due to the various capture datapoints, and deemed legal. My bank is using these now, too.
Interestingly enough, it's not how "neat" the signature is; it may appear messy on a screen, but the pressure points, velocity, and speed are all evaluated to assure that the signature is real.
Maybe Matt can explain my rudimentary understanding or correct me?


The_Don  (B License)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:07 PM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydive Atlanta went paperless the first of the year.


strop45  (D 957)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:09 PM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We've already saved 160,000 sheets of paper at Skydive Hawaii. At 20lbs a ream, that's 3 metric tons of paper. (which no longer needs to be stored for 7 years).
Sounds great!! Not too sure about your maths though. A sheet of paper weighs about 5g so 160,000 sheets is 800kg or 0.8 metric tonnes.


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:10 PM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good questions. We obviously approached the subject very carefully. The short answer is yes, these are fully enforceable do to a set of laws dubbed “ESIGN” laws. You can find information about the laws here:

http://www.topazsystems.com/links/s761.pdf
This article helps to put the law into perspective for those of us who don’t read legalese.

http://www.topazsystems.com/...signlawexplained.pdf

From the technical perspective, the tablet or surface that “records” the electronic signature records every point of the signature in real time, so that the exact speeds of the lines being drawn is recorded – not just an “image” of the signature. That information is then encrypted using the original document as the encryption key, so that only the original document can be used to extract the signature. The signature and document are then combined and stored. (This is the short version).

There is absolutely no way an opposing attorney would try to challenge the validity of the signature, however we were not satisfied with just this fact. Our concern was that the user experience itself would be challenged, with a claim of “I did not understand what I was signing”, or “The process was confusing and misleading”.

We overcame these concerns after some carefully thought out details to our implementation, which I may go into in more depth later but I’m about to head out for some food right now :-)


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:14 PM
Post #7 of 38 (3105 views)
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Re: [strop45] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

A ream of paper weighs 20lbs.

A ream of paper has 500 sheets.

It takes 320 reams of paper to make 160,000 sheets.

320 reams * 20lbs = 6,400 lbs.

According to google's calculator, 6400lbs = 2.90299117 metric tons.

Where is my math wrong?

In reply to:
In reply to:
We've already saved 160,000 sheets of paper at Skydive Hawaii. At 20lbs a ream, that's 3 metric tons of paper. (which no longer needs to be stored for 7 years).
Sounds great!! Not too sure about your maths though. A sheet of paper weighs about 5g so 160,000 sheets is 800kg or 0.8 metric tonnes.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:19 PM
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Re: [DSE] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I correctly understand some of what I've recently read, signatures on a conductive pad are actually more viable than a fingerprint
Hmmm..I didn't know that.
I'm gonna screw with the bank and sign left-handed...just to see what happens.

Yes, I'm taking bail money for the fraud charges.
LaughLaugh


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:25 PM
Post #9 of 38 (3082 views)
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I see my "math" failure now. It turns out that what is advertised and labeled as a "20lbs ream" actually only weighs 6lbs. When I googled to find what a ream of paper weighed and many websites agreed that they came in 24, 22, 20, and 18lbs weights, I incorrectly assumed that a ream was 20lbs. I should have known better just based on having picked them up on a regular basis.

My math was wrong, so it turns out that yes, the total is just under 1 metric ton (1,920lbs).


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:43 PM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

How long is a metric string? I've always wondered.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:21 PM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

What kind of cost are we looking to get this up an running at for a small 182 operation who might host 4 or 5 events a yr with a smaller turbine like a pac?


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 28, 2013, 7:19 PM
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Re: [stratostar] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What kind of cost are we looking to get this up an running at for a small 182 operation who might host 4 or 5 events a yr with a smaller turbine like a pac?

To be honest the cost may not be economical for a smaller drop zone, but I’ll let you decide:

A three kiosk setup would run you about $3060 plus travel expenses to set it up plus $135/yr in support. This price would include:

* 3 laptops to be used as kiosks (assumes $400 per laptop)

* 3 Topaz signaturegem 1x5 pads (assumes $170 per pad)

* 3 software licenses (assumes $450 per kiosk)

* Complete setup of your waiver document.

* 1.5 days onsite setup and configuration (You would be required to pay airfare from Chicago as well as provide local transportation and lodging)

* We would provide offsite backup as part of the support plan.

* We would provide unlimited customer support as part of the support plan.

* In order for our offsite backup to be viable, you must have a stable high speed internet connection on site.

* You would need a computer we can use as a file server, it does not need to be fast or new, but it should be reliable.

* You would need a windows based computer for the staff “signature verification” portion of the software. If you don’t have one, add $600. This could also be used as the file server.

For more than three kiosks I’ll go down on the license fee cost, but the hardware requirements remain the same. If you want workstations separate mouse/keyboard/monitor configuration instead of a laptop you'll pay a little extra for the hardware, but honestly the laptops have been doing great at Skydive Hawaii, almost a year and 20,000 waivers and all of their 15 stations are still fully functional.

It's an even better product if you're running RealDropzone because the customer profile is overwritten / created with all of the customers detail when they type it in, so you literally NEVER have to type a customers name or personal information ever.

Consider that you're saving on:

Never having to order new printed waivers (or wear and tear on your copy equipment).

Never having to "pre-load" clipboards again.

Not have to store documents in boxes for 7 years.

Never have any trouble looking up a waiver if needed.

As I said I'm not sure if it's worth it at a small cessna dropzone where your major bottleneck is the lift capacity of your aircraft, but for medium to larger size dropzones it sure makes life easier on the ground when your staff doesn't have to handle the paperwork.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 28, 2013, 7:36 PM
Post #13 of 38 (2977 views)
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would most DZs need 3 units?


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 28, 2013, 7:41 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why would most DZs need 3 units?

Only one person can use the kiosk at a time. A customer spends around 5 minutes on the kiosk entering information and then reading and signing multiple pages. Take a look at the photo gallery link on my first post, Skydive Hawaii is VERY large and has 15 kiosks. Skydive Long Island is large and has 8 kiosks. With 3 kiosks you can get 9 customers through in 15 minutes, so this would be the number for a smaller DZ. If you're more than a cessna dropzone I would recommend 6+ kiosks so that it's very convenient for your customers.


oldwomanc6

Jan 28, 2013, 8:23 PM
Post #15 of 38 (2951 views)
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

A ream of (computer) paper is closer to 5 pounds. The ream of paper you are quoting is a full sheet ream. A full size sheet is ~22"x30". The paper you are using is what is known as quarter sheets. Antiquated terms, but Oh, well! It still is known as such in the art world.

The weight of the paper listed on the package is also what 500 pages of that particular paper weighs in full sheets, not what the 500 sheet package weighs.

Pick up a ream of computer paper, and you'll see what I mean. Tongue


eta: It's still a boatload of paper


(This post was edited by oldwomanc6 on Jan 28, 2013, 8:32 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 8:41 PM
Post #16 of 38 (2930 views)
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the detail reply.... I think it seem a very reasonable cost for the long run at type of operation I was talking about.

However some places are too cheap to spend a dime a editing gear and record rewinds in their "professional videos"..... as well as the space for the laptops.... the tight asses are not going to spend it.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 9:17 PM
Post #17 of 38 (2909 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
Thanks for the detail reply.... I think it seem a very reasonable cost for the long run at type of operation I was talking about.

However some places are too cheap to spend a dime a editing gear and record rewinds in their "professional videos"..... as well as the space for the laptops.... the tight asses are not going to spend it.

I'm not a computer jocky, but the technology is changing so fast i hear lots of people have their own cell phones etc has anyone considered making "a app for that" waiverSly

Hard to compete with the cost of paper a 3 ring binder and a bic pen and a couple of empty xerox boxes.Wink

If the computer jocks could eliminate a couple of laptops and speed up the process, somehow have peeps use their smart phones for everything but their sig line or something.

Maybe the GMDZ's could partner with USPA to add a chip in their liscense card that included a standard waiver.


strife  (D 5457)

Jan 29, 2013, 1:26 AM
Post #18 of 38 (2878 views)
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Re: [Krip] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

a few of our car rental companies like avis and co are all paperless now and just take electronic signature


JohnRitch

Jan 29, 2013, 7:12 AM
Post #19 of 38 (2812 views)
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Re: [oldwomanc6] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
eta: It's still a boatload of paper

Yeah, but how does the cost of that paper compare to the boatload of computer resources and the time it takes to keep it all running smoothly?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:14 AM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

@mr17hz:

What do you do to help make sure customers actually read the waiver?

That's been one objection I've seen to ideas like "get the students to do the waiver online before coming to the DZ, to save time". (Which goes beyond what you are doing, as you have the electronic signature hardware.)

We've all clicked "I agree with the conditions" buttons on 10 page software agreements without reading them, but many have done the same with long paper waivers too.

On paper, a common technique is to require the customer to initial after every couple paragraphs.

Do you do something to both allow customers to see the whole waiver agreement at once, yet also force them to slow down and not just scroll to the bottom? I'm curious as that's an issue that I've seen a DZO have qualms about.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:18 AM
Post #21 of 38 (2805 views)
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Instead of kiosks, why not push it directly to their mobile device.
https://rightsignature.com/


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:19 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't this whole thread advertising?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:24 AM
Post #23 of 38 (2798 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

When one of the moderators resigns; you can put in for the job.


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Jan 29, 2013, 8:08 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me prefix all of this by saying that I am not an attorney, and that you should consult your own attorney for his opinion on my words. It is also important to note that laws regarding validity of waivers of liability in general will vary state to state. The authenticity of the electronic signature has never been challenged, even in multi-billion dollar real estate disputes. It is protected by the federal ESIGN law that deems a properly collected and encrypted electronic signature to be just as legally binding as pen signature on paper, or a photocopy of that, for that matter.

You will not have to prove that the signature is actually theirs (as a final stage your employee is looking at every signature collected on the software and visually comparing it against that customers government issued ID), and you’ve got a witness signature.

What you may have to prove is this:

- Was the customer not fully aware that this agreement applied to them?

- Was the customer misled through a confusing process, to sign something they did not realize they were signing?

- Was the customer let to believe they were signing something completely different?

- Was the Dropzone genuinely interested in making sure that all customers are FULLY AWARE of the agreement they are making with the business before they participated in activities, or was the Dropzone being deceptive?

The next thing to consider is that a trial is not all about facts. There is an emotional side, and a psychological side. This is especially true when you’ve chosen to have a trial by jury. What you need to do is calmly and plainly make a case to the jury that there is no way that the business misled the customer. Here are measures that we take to assure this can happen:

- We have a separate page before the waiver begins that explains how very important it is to read the waiver entirely, stressing that they will be giving up important legal rights.

- Our digital “Pages” are designed not only to look good on the screen, but also in print. Every single page of the waiver is signed separately, and then finally the entire document is signed as one long document. Every single page can then be presented as a SEPARATE EXIBIT, each blown up on a giant poster board with its own signature and date at the bottom. An attorney can then point to it by an attorney during a questioning in addition to handing out copies for individual review.

- After signing every page individually, we present the entire document as scrollable text so that it is signed again: together. We did this for two reasons, first I got a couple of different opinions on how to handle multiple signatures from the document storage perspective and I wanted to cover all bases, and second; this further helps to drive in the point that the customer had every opportunity to read and understand this document before agreeing to the terms.

- Our software uses clean easy to read fonts and black and white contrast. While the waiver content itself is decided by the DZ, we recommend that everything is the same size and is very uniform and clean. Each page of the waiver should be treated like a work of art, as you may need to present it to an audience.

- At the bottom of EVERY PAGE, right next to the signature line, we bluntly declare “You may be injured or killed while skydiving.” Not only are you required to scroll to the bottom of the text, but the bottom of the waiver must be clearly visible at the time you are signing. (you can’t scroll back up to the top without starting your signature over)

- Our solution does not use iPads or other tablets that the customer can walk around with. They sign their waiver at a fixed station using a workstation or fixed laptop computer, exposing an “ATM like environment” that very clearly feels like each individual person is signing the waiver separately, where they have time to overcome any peer pressure, and are not being distracted by others during the process.

- At existing implementations, there are high definition security cameras in place that capture the customer’s face when they walk in the door, while they are watching the tandem video, and while they are at the kiosks. This can be used to show the ‘likeness’ of the customer, that they were not coerced in any way.

- The staff component of this software requires that the signatures be reviewed and compared against the customers ID, the staff member is then able to act as a witness to the transaction.

It is important to note that we went through MANY revisions of this software since the time we first thought it out before we let it go live. There are actually some products that run on an iPad now and claim to accomplish the same thing that my solution does (and technically, they do), but a lot about my solution is the presentation to the customer, and how all of this will be presented to a judge or jury. The iPad solutions that I have seen on the market might work for real estate, and frankly the ones I have reviewed are actually more expensive (Thanks Apple!). That having been said, if you find a competing product that is comparable for less money I can look into matching their price, or clarifying why our product stands out as different.


oldwomanc6

Jan 29, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #25 of 38 (2772 views)
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Re: [JohnRitch] Paperless Waivers of Liability at your Local DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
eta: It's still a boatload of paper

Yeah, but how does the cost of that paper compare to the boatload of computer resources and the time it takes to keep it all running smoothly?

In a normal office situation (which we know a DZ is NOT), I would suspect the paperless route is more cost-effective, especially over the course of many years that documents have to be stored. If copies have to be stored in a separate location as a back-up, wireless is definitely cheaper.

As a DZ starting w/o any computer resources? Who knows. The initial conversion is bound to be expensive, but the storage part of it is still probably cheaper and not nearly as cumbersome. If you need to retrieve a document, electronic is much easier as well. It's very expensive to retrieve a hard copy (picture the man-hours required to dig through a warehouse full of boxes that may or may not be very organized). Tongue


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