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Logbook: Digital vs Paper

 

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edisoncruz  (B License)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:00 PM
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Logbook: Digital vs Paper Can't Post

Hey Everybody,

So recently I got a Neptune N3 and as a result ended up buying Paralog to keep digital records. For the first 20 or 30 jumps after that I kept up with continuing to write notes in my paper logbook on top of typing notes into Paralog. It's now been a while since I've written anything in my paper logbook but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about some questions that have come to mind:

Would this be a problem when going to a new DZ if my most reliable records are just on my iPhone (via Paralog iOS app)? Does your DZ care? I recently went to Skydive Deland and Skydive Sebastian while home for the holidays and they were totally cool with just looking on my phone but they're also huge and as a result have seen just about everything in the sport.
Would this be an issue for licenses/ratings/etc where I would theoretically need to collect signatures for different qualifications? If you're an instructor, is this something you care about?

Thanks in advance for the help! Please share any thoughts or helpful experience with this sort of thing. Thanks for reading my 1st post on dropzone.com!


Tuna-Salad  (C 38765)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:08 PM
Post #2 of 69 (4033 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

If I've said anything ever intelligent here it will be this. Do not stop writing in the log book. It will reach up and bite you one day at some DZ's if you don't.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:50 AM
Post #3 of 69 (3955 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Everybody,

So recently I got a Neptune N3 and as a result ended up buying Paralog to keep digital records. For the first 20 or 30 jumps after that I kept up with continuing to write notes in my paper logbook on top of typing notes into Paralog. It's now been a while since I've written anything in my paper logbook but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about some questions that have come to mind:

Would this be a problem when going to a new DZ if my most reliable records are just on my iPhone (via Paralog iOS app)? Does your DZ care? I recently went to Skydive Deland and Skydive Sebastian while home for the holidays and they were totally cool with just looking on my phone but they're also huge and as a result have seen just about everything in the sport.
Would this be an issue for licenses/ratings/etc where I would theoretically need to collect signatures for different qualifications? If you're an instructor, is this something you care about?

Thanks in advance for the help! Please share any thoughts or helpful experience with this sort of thing. Thanks for reading my 1st post on dropzone.com!

SIM Section 3-1

Quote:
C. Logging jumps for licenses and ratings

1. Skydives offered as evidence of qualification must have been:

a. made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump

b. legibly recorded in chronological order in an appropriate log that contains the following information:

(1) jump number

(2) date

(3) location

(4) exit altitude

(5) freefall length (time)

(6) type of jump (formation skydiving, freeflying, canopy formation, style, etc.)

(7) landing distance from the target

(8) equipment used

(9) verifying signature

2. Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

3. Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

If you can show me how you're able to record the signature for each jump on your phone, maybe... but don't count on everyone accepting it.

For my instructor courses, I had to show them my logbook showing freefall time/total jumps.


theplummeter  (C License)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:14 AM
Post #4 of 69 (3931 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Eloy wouldn't take the jumps from my Viso to verify currency, they needed to see my logbook last time I was there.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:54 AM
Post #5 of 69 (3907 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

nothing wrong with BOTH.....
digital...if you have one... BUT hard copy as well.. for Back-Up ANd for sign-offs....

i've always been a log book sort of person and sometimes enjoy going back and re-experiencing skydives... EVEn if they are from years ago....

Not enough time???? to fill out a logbook???

nonsense.... it doesn't have to be immediately AFTER each jump....and can be done Instead of spending time ON a computer..WinkCool
jmy A 3914 D12122


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 6:21 AM
Post #6 of 69 (3894 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

What happens to your digital log book when your digital device gets stolen, or when it's dropped in the toilet destroying the memory card?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:37 AM
Post #7 of 69 (3883 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(9) verifying signature

2. Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

3. Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

If you can show me how you're able to record the signature for each jump on your phone, maybe... but don't count on everyone accepting it.

For my instructor courses, I had to show them my logbook showing freefall time/total jumps.My iPhone "Skydive Log" will take a signature very easily, its one of the functions of the log and phone.

"Skydive Log, accommodates EVERY requirement from the USPA and from the APF


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:39 AM
Post #8 of 69 (3878 views)
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Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What happens to your digital log book when your digital device gets stolen, or when it's dropped in the toilet destroying the memory card?

like EVERY other electronic tool. BACK YOUR WORK UP

paper log books can be lost or destroyed too.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:41 AM
Post #9 of 69 (3872 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Digital records require reliable backup. Your computer is not reliable. Synching them out to Google might seem reasonable reliable, but I've heard horror stories about people having their accounts canceled by the company.

Paper records also require reliable backup. It's all fun and games until your logbook gets lost, stolen or destroyed. This is a more insidious problem because you don't often think about backup for your paper records.

Sadly I don't have a good solution for either problem.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:42 AM
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Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

What happens when you lose your log book? Same thing!

I have always been terrible about logging. After 1000 jumps I just stopped all together. It's more important when you're first starting out but after a while it really doesn't mean much, to me anyway. When you only have a few hundred jumps a new DZ is probably going to check out your log book more carfeully, so a physical one might be best.


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #11 of 69 (3752 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What happens when you lose your log book? Same thing!

The odds of someone wanting to steal your paper log book is MUCH smaller than that of someone wanting to steal your digital phone.

A paper log book that gets wet can be dried out, but a short-circuited memory card is usualliy unrecoverable.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 28, 2013, 3:57 PM
Post #12 of 69 (3691 views)
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Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a file, you can have it saved in more than one place. You can't easily do that with your log book. One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:28 PM
Post #13 of 69 (3679 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep the log book going regardless of the electronic one.

- Some DZs require you to show one

- If you want ratings of any sort, the Course Director will ask you to prove your jump numbers and freefall time with a logbook with the signatures.

- When you're old and decrepit sitting on your porch in a rocking chair you can pull out the old logbook and relive the memories.

- Get the autographs of both the famous and the infamous...I have some really off-the-wall autographs both related and not related to skydiving


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:59 PM
Post #14 of 69 (3661 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Paper logbooks can be your friend.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:04 PM
Post #15 of 69 (3659 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In 50 years your grandchildren can read your logbooks. That won't happen if you go 100% digital. Believe me, from an old skydiver perspective, you will wish you had written more.


edisoncruz  (B License)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:11 PM
Post #16 of 69 (3654 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, so it sounds like the consensus is that there will be times where a digital logbook won't be a replacement for a paper/physical logbook. I'll be going home tonight and spending some time updating it then making sure I get signatures going forward.

Re: Losing the digital logbook - That's not a concern. Essentially unless I delete the files then I can't lose it since I keep everything synced between Paralog, my iPhone, Dropbox, and Jumplog.net so I've covered that.

The important aspect seems to be that currently I don't *think* Paralog for iOS/Android supports getting signatures and I'll definitely need that for ratings, according to the USPA rules. The other part is that if I go to a new DZ I'm taking a chance as to whether or not they'll be okay with a digital logbook.

Re: Looking back at old jumps and reliving the memories - I take all my notes in Paralog (check out the screenshots below for an example of all the data from my synced Neptune N3 plus example notes at the bottom). Clearly I'm a big fan of introducing more technology into some parts of the sport :)
Attachments: 2013-01-26 - Paralog iOS Example Jump 117.png (157 KB)
  2013-01-26 - Paralog iOS Example Jump 117 - Data Profile.png (91.5 KB)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:49 PM
Post #17 of 69 (3631 views)
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Re: [darkwing] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In 50 years your grandchildren can read your logbooks. That won't happen if you go 100% digital. Believe me, from an old skydiver perspective, you will wish you had written more.
in 50 years, the kids wont know what a "book" isSlySlySly


edisoncruz  (B License)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:21 PM
Post #18 of 69 (3612 views)
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Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post


That's a great article. Thanks, DSE - and everyone for the advice/experience sharing.

Hopefully my screenshots also show that when I'm talking about a digital logbook I don't just mean the data dump from the Neptune (or any other ditter for that matter). Paralog actually allows you to write in notes and record the details of the experience in the same way (it's just typed instead of being in my own writing - which I work in tech so I can go weeks without even touching a pen and paper).

Really the important parts of all this seem to be:
1. That you can record all the details about the jump and experience because those memories and details are important on a number of different levels.
2. That you can get signatures from fellow jumpers and instructors/coaches (particularly if you're going to be working on getting advanced ratings and licenses).


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:32 PM
Post #19 of 69 (3606 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Really the important parts of all this seem to be:
1. That you can record all the details about the jump and experience because those memories and details are important on a number of different levels.
2. That you can get signatures from fellow jumpers and instructors/coaches (particularly if you're going to be working on getting advanced ratings and licenses).
and you can do all of that with the "Skydive Log" app.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 28, 2013, 6:32 PM)


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 7:28 PM
Post #20 of 69 (3577 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink

But if you leave it laying around unguarded, they'll certainly put a picture of their dick on your phone.


(This post was edited by tunde on Jan 28, 2013, 7:31 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #21 of 69 (3567 views)
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Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink

But if you leave it laying around unguarded, they'll certainly put a picture of their dick on your phone.
LOL not on my phone, the camera dont workSlySlySlySly


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 28, 2013, 7:59 PM)


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 28, 2013, 8:19 PM
Post #22 of 69 (3548 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

I know many won't agree with me, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinion is that a paper logbook is not necessary, and that forcing everyone to have one is retarded.

I can understand some people like to have hem to relive the memories, write details of the jumps they make, or to collect "cool" signatures. To each their own, and I respect that, but personally I have no need for that.

I don't have any USPA ratings, so I'm not sure how that works, but I guess if you need for example 500 jumps to get a rating, after you got that number of jumps a personal logbook is not necessary. And even for a rating I see no reason why a good electronic logbook containing all the pertaining information and signatures could not be acceptable.

Now, in my case, I see no need for a logbook. I jump only for fun, and have no desire whatsoever to ever get any instructional or Pro rating. I have an alti-track that records all my jumps, and all the relevant information for verifying currency if someone wishes to do so.

What really annoys me, is that some people don't want to accept the idea of someone not having a paper logbook. Here's what happened to me recently: I decide to go on a trip to my favorite DZ in the US. I check their website and it is written there that you need a logbook to prove currency, and that an electronic logbook is acceptable, so I only bring my alti-track with me.

Because of work and the end of the summer here, I wasn't current anymore (a bit over 3 months since last jump). So I expected a coach jump. Well, on top of that they asked for a 50$ ground training. Ok, whatever, it's their dropzone, if that's what they require and I'm not happy I can always jump somewhere else. So I decide to take the course without complaining (and the expected coach jump).

After the course the instructor asks for my logbook. I give him my alti-track. To make a long story short, I was forced to buy a paper logbook to enter my recurrency jump if I wanted to jump, and that was not negotiable.

I find that completely stupid, as I was doing a recurrency jump anyways, I had jumped there the year before and had my uspa licence with me. His point is that anyone can steal or take someone else electronic logbook -as if nobody can fake a paper logbook!

Anyways, all that to say that IMO, for licence or ratings requirements a paper logbook is not better that a good electronic logbook (like the skydive log app), and for currency purposes an electronic altimeter with memory is good enough. People that refuse to see that, IMO are closed minded and I refuse to encourage that by using a logbook to make them happy.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 9:39 PM
Post #23 of 69 (3528 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

Different strokes for different folks. You want to go digital no problemo just got to find a dz that will work with you.Wink Your the customer you can go to any DZ that you want to.

But I would find a differnt dz to go to that was more customer friendly and wasn't treating you like a cash cow.Mad

The DZ you went to doesn't have a monoply on jumping they can ask for whatever they want you just have to be be prepared to say no thank you 3,2,1, cya


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 28, 2013, 10:14 PM
Post #24 of 69 (3520 views)
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Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 28, 2013, 10:29 PM
Post #25 of 69 (3506 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread.

what reasons? All requirements can be complied with by an electronic logbook. The only problem is people who don't want to change their habits.

It was the same in aviation, where it is A LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have a logbook, and now the vast majority of commercial pilots use electronic logbooks.

Why would a piece of paper have more value than a virtual logbook? We now live in an electronic world, even the money is virtual now, don't tell me a skydiving logbook -that has no legal value- is something so special that can only be done by paper!

I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.


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